Austro-Hungarian Engraved Aircrew Badge of Anton Sergeyvevich Popov

[RedNoseScout]

How do u read this Cryllic?   

Anton Sergeyvevich Popov?  

 

I could not find him in Robert Veinfurter we’ll-researched book. 

Not surprised.  Many records were destroyed in the WW2 bombings. 
 

According to my Russian speaking friends the inscription is clearly in dedication mode - TO An. Serg, Popov in 1908.  The year. The g after 1908 indicates year. In Russian - this "TO" is in the form of suffix "U" - Popovu and is Nominativ is POPOV, Dativ (To Popov) is PopovU.  
 

Thr badge is definitely a legit beautiful 1917 AH Observer badge. The weak back pin was replaced w hooks.  This badge was clearly worn in combat.  
 

The script is hand-done not by machine.  My Bulgarian jeweler examined and confirmed. 
i have seen hundreds of original engraved scripts.  

 

The date 1908 is what is throwing me off. 
could it be an anniversary date?  Or was engraved after the war for sentimental reasons and someone got it wrong? 

This came out of a collection put together 60 years ago!  

I know of Austrians who flew for the Russian Air Service and it makes sense that Russian-speaking people could have flown for the AH Empire since parts of the empire spoke Russian, i.e. like the Western part of today’s Ukraine. 
 

If any one knows anything about this observer or wants to take a shot at the name below - feel free.   The date (if it is a date) is the only thing I still can’t explain.  By the way I am very good at decipher unknown engravings on German and AH aviation badges and silver.  I may post more of my findings of my confirmed discoveries.  To date I have solved 26 unknown names.  Engravings are like messages in a bottle to the future.  If real. 

At first I thought the g was an s and maybe was an aerial  ground assault unit reference. 
I have no doubt this is authentic aviation heirloom.  But this one mystery remains unless I am misinterpreting this beautiful Cyrllic script. 

 

 

A dear friend with 45+ years experience wrote  me:

 

most engraved items are repros but some original EK's or aviation badges are fake engraved by well known aces to double the price but most engravings are poor quality, there are still no silver smiths left, who could engrave the original style of the old german letters by hand like then. 
 

 

[Luftmensch]

Beautiful badge! 

 

I'm not sure about aces faking engravings, but most of the fake engravings I've seen on real badges date to the 1990s when they were worth a fraction of what they are today.  If he meant faked TO well known aces that is not the case here on an aircrew  badge, nor was it typical of the fakes I saw.  The over-the-top fake engravings to famous pilots were always on terrible fake badges in search of a REAL sucker, not a discriminating or intelligent buyer. 

 

I learned the hard way in NY with a gold watch that no one is alive who can do quality engraving like this any more--it's all done by machine, and it ain't pretty.

 

Chances are if this has service wear it was given in 1918 and not later.  That's 10 years from the presentation date, so I'd guess this gift marks the 10-year anniversary commemorating some event like: graduating from a military academy?  Being commissioned as an officer of the K.u.K. Army?  

 

Congrats on a very rare piece with a mystery we may never solve a century later.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Luftmensch

[RedNoseScout]

Yes - you made a very good point - very few observers or air gunners ever became national figures unless and until they became ace pilots. Otto Urban (who survived the war) was a highly praised observer and after 3 years of service  (I compare him to Georg Hans Horn) became a pilot  on April 30, 1918.   I identified (with help) his silver AH pilot badge.  It is arguably the most beautiful pilot badge of the war.  
 

Two of the forensic keys (there are more) to proving that this was combat-worn is first studying the  soldered brass hooks (karabinerhafteln) - they are classic time-period and paying careful attention to the weakly struck Zimbler maker mark.  The 1950s Zimbler badges (sold mostly to NATO pilots) are distinctly different and come with thin pins that would never have survived the twist and turns of combat.  Unfortunately many are sold as original war badges today but these reproductions are worth far less compared to their original war-time counterparts which are extremely hard to find. Fakers fool with fantasies, and auction houses and some badge reference materials mistakenly misidentified them for original AH  pilot and aircrew badges!! 

Edited April 6, 2022 by RedNoseScout

[VtwinVince]

Agree with John, beautiful badge and the engraving is absolutely correct.

[RedNoseScout]

Thank you Vince.  John is amazing in knowledge and insight.  I’ve only been at this for 4 years and what I am doing has never been done before.   Rasti  helped me w the original translation and Gerhard responded: 

It's still a beautiful zimbler piece but I still can't interpret the engraving! Tried again but the 1908 still confuses me ! the engraving is 100% original!

best regards gerhard

Personally I think it would be too dangerous for a forger to risk ruining a Badge this originally beautiful.  I can easily live with mysteries if a specimen has no mistakes.  I feel like I am an outlier on this site and your words are encouraging.  Erik

[Elmar Lang]

On 06/04/2022 at 04:34, RedNoseScout said:

(...)Two of the forensic keys (there are more) to proving that this was combat-worn is first studying the  soldered brass hooks (karabinerhafteln) - they are classic time-period and paying careful attention to the weakly struck Zimbler maker mark.  The 1950s Zimbler badges (sold mostly to NATO pilots) are distinctly different and come with thin pins that would never have survived the twist and turns of combat.  Unfortunately many are sold as original war badges today but these reproductions are worth far less compared to their original war-time counterparts which are extremely hard to find. Fakers fool with fantasies, and auction houses and some badge reference materials mistakenly misidentified them for original AH  pilot and aircrew badges!! 

 

Would you be so kind to show us one of the mentioned 1950s Zimbler badges, to be compared -obverse and reverse- with their pre-1918 counterparts? That would be highly intructive for most of us.

 

Aside, I would like to add, that the Feldpilotenabzeichen and the Luftfahrerabzeichen, when made of silver, are always privately purchased or presented pieces.

 

All the best,

 

Enzo (E.L.)

[tifes]

Hi,

well, I would say…lost in translation?. I read it: „Ни. Еврч. Попову 1908 г.“, which means (to) „Ni(kolay) Yev(g)r(afovi)ch Popov 1908 g.“ („1908 g.“ stand for in year 1908, that´s correct).  Nikolay Yevgrafovich Popov was a pioneer Russian aviator. His interest in flying could be dated back to 1908 when he started as mechanic in flight school of Wright brothers in Paris. He flew for the first time in 1909 and became a pilot. He returned to Russia but consequently he almost fatally crashed in 1910, survived but he couldn’t fly anymore. He moved back to France. During WWI, he served as a navigator in an airship of the French Air Force. After the war he moved to Côte d’Azur and committed suicide in 1929 as suffered from excruciating back pain as a result of his plane crash in 1910.

Badge itself it´s original piece (no doubt about it) whether it was worn during WW1 by some AH flight observer is unknown but Popov has nothing to do with it and that´s also sure. Popov was on other side, with the Triple Entente and never had any business with AH Luftfahrtruppen. It might be that somebody (maybe old Austrian aviator friend from pre-1914 period?) gave it to him as gift in years after WW1 or there might be another story.

 

Best,

 

Tomas

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by tifes
correction

[GdC26]

6 hours ago, tifes said:

Hi,

well, I would say…lost in translation?. I read it: „Ни. Еврч. Попову 1908 г.“, which means (to) „Ni(kolay) Yev(g)r(afovi)ch Popov 1908 g.“ („1908 g.“ stand for in year 1908, that´s correct).  Nikolay Yevgrafovich Popov was a pioneer Russian aviator. His interest in flying could be dated back to 1908 when he started as mechanic in flight school of Wright brothers in Paris. He flew for the first time in 1909 and became a pilot. He returned to Russia but consequently he almost fatally crashed in 1910, survived but he couldn’t fly anymore. He moved back to France. During WWI, he served as a navigator in an airship of the French Air Force. After the war he moved to Côte d’Azur and committed suicide in 1929 as suffered from excruciating back pain as a result of his plane crash in 1910.

Badge itself it´s original piece (no doubt about it) whether it was worn during WW1 by some AH flight observer is unknown but Popov has nothing to do with it and that´s also sure. Popov was on other side, with the Triple Entente and never had any business with AH Luftfahrtruppen. It might be that somebody (maybe old Austrian aviator friend from pre-1914 period?) gave it to him as gift in years after WW1 or there might be another story.

 

Best,

 

Tomas

 

Or it might be a well engraved fantasy to boost value, I guess ……?

Great research, thanks Tomas.

Kind regards,

Sandro

[Elmar Lang]

Hello again,

 

I find the contribution of Tifes as highly interesting, for having found a Popov who was a pioneer of aviation.

 

But I regret to say that in my opinion the engraving to the back of the Luftfahrerabzeichen, actually should be: "Ал. Серг. Попову 1908 г."; transcripted in our characters, "Al. Serg. Popovu 1908 g.".

 

The engraving is surely done by hand and well executed; it also show some darkening due to the years passed since it was added to the badge.

 

So, we have two points that are sure:

 

1) the Luftfaherabzeichen is original;

 

2) The engraving is done by hand.

 

Furthermore, I'd dare to add that:

 

a) the badge was instituted by Emperor Karl I well later than 1908 (1917, actually);

 

b) no Russians were flying within the Austro-Hungarian Luftfahrtruppen during WW1.

 

I fear that unless we could obtain a sound, documented background, we should consider this piece as a fine, original badge bearing a well-engraved dedication, referring to a date prior to the institution of this type of badge.

 

To RedNoseScout: why feeling "like being an outlier on this site"? In this room devoted to the study of the Austro-Hungarian awards, you can meet some advanced collectors and researchers, with whom start and conduct interesting conversations.

 

I can say that in here I've always met excellent people and have learnt many interesting things that helped me advancing in this interesting sector of Faleristic.

 

Best wishes,

 

Enzo (E.L.)

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Elmar Lang

[tifes]

Hi Enzo,

 

I´ve see this badge like 10 years ago (pictures below) and group of Russian speaking collectors (where I somehow belong) was consulted "what we see on the picture". Old Russian cursive might be tricky but please do not compare today's modern cursive with 19th cent. style. Reading in old Russian is quite challenging as after 1917 there was a reform in orthography and simplification of cursive for common folk (till  Soviet times most of them illiterate). However, I still can see there "Ни" for Ni(kolay). With second name (отчество) is more tricky but the conclusion then and now is the same: Before 1914 there were very few Russian aviators (we are talking about individuals) and Nikolay Yevgrafovich Popov was one of those very few (...and any other Russian aviator of that name did not exist). So either it´s engraving real and it has somehow connotation to Russian pioneer airman or it´s just pure fantasy. The same concerns the concept that some pilot/observer from Austrian Galicia would speak officially Russian, moreover in time of WW1.   

[Luftmensch]

Is there anything to suggest a K.u.K. aviator did not give this as a gift after the war to a Russian FORMER enemy, and someone whom the giver might have had a pre-war association with?...and have the dedication done in the language of the recipient?  After the war former enemy flyers did a lot of socialising, and renewing of pre-war friendships (especially among aviation pioneers) and mementos & keepsakes were often exchanged......

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Luftmensch

[GdC26]

1 hour ago, Luftmensch said:

Is there anything to suggest a K.u.K. aviator did not give this as a gift after the war to a Russian FORMER enemy, and someone whom the giver might have had a pre-war association with?...and have the dedication done in the language of the recipient?  After the war former enemy flyers did a lot of socialising, and renewing of pre-war friendships (especially among aviation pioneers) and mementos & keepsakes were often exchanged......

 

Many things are possible, of course, but I not sure that that is how this works - assume it is good until proven otherwise. Normally, it is the other way around ..... "buy the item, not the story"?

 

Unless there is some sound evidence on the history and provenance of this piece, for reasons stated by Tomas and Enzo, it should be approached with a healthy dosis of skepticism in my view. Especially since Mr. Popov was not exactly a nobody in Russian aviation history, from the looks of it, and so I gather, did not fly in the Russian air service during WWI, and no other connection with Austria has so far been established. 

 

Enzo's summary of the evidence before us strikes me as accurate: we have a 1917 original military aircrew badge with a hand-engraved deduction, made out to a famous Russian civilian flight engineer/pioneer to commemorate something that purportedly happened in 1908 (and thus has nothing to do with the badge). Without further information/proof (on the giver, on the event, on Popov 1908's connection with Austria, etc.).

 

What doesn't help is that the first international aeronautical week took place in 1909, the second in 1911 - so that avenue does not seem to be open, either:

 

https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/1909-first-major-international-flying-meet

 

https://feefhs.org/index.php/resource/russia-blitz-first-aviators

 

I'll keep an open mind, of course, but for the reasons set out above, originality will have to be proven in my view, and cannot be assumed.

 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

 

[Luftmensch]

Originality of badge is proven.  The quality of the engraving suggests it was not done recently.

 

In my 40 years of collecting I've never seen fakers adding quality old-world engraving to original badges.  Especially one in obscure Russian to obscure personages.

 

There are easier ways to make a profit.

 

Given a choice between saying this is an attempt to deceive

 

OR

 

this is an authentic presentation piece we don't yet understand, I vote for the latter.

[RedNoseScout]

Enzio:

 

I’m sorry I haven’t replied sooner.  Let me clarify.  I’ve been in aviation since I was 4.  I got interested in badges in 1967.  I dn become a serious collector until 4 years ago after a year of dabbling when I got the bug. There’s apparently no cure fore it.  ? 

 

Check out this link:

 

https://gmic.co.uk/topic/5741-id-weird-a-h-flying-badges/page/3/

 

20 years ago the dust was just starting to settle  on what were legit badges. The current reference books were not even written except maybe Michael M. Edelstein brilliant treatise called Wings of Grace and Valor  it was on K.u.K. Aviation Badges (2004).  One of the best ever if not the best on the subject.  Shame he never got to see a cased AH pilot badge.  I’ll post on those separately.   I’m still trying to understand how to use this site so bear w me. 

 

Les was still learning the ropes in the above link.  He developed a fabulous eye over the years and has been extremely helpful to me, too.  When it comes to collecting, he knows how to walk on clouds w his reach.  I am just a student stuck on the ground.  I’m trying to understand better and share appropriately what I ’ve learned. I need to learn how to do this better.  I am sometimes over excited in my discoveries.   I’ve made many - mostly from the help of others.   I don’t want to make mistakes.  I want to understand. And find stories to relate to what we hold in our hands.  To that extent will you walk backward w me?  I know u know way more than me. I feel privilege to learn from u to better help me to tell the truth - so would u agree all of these below  r real time-period Zimbler marks for starters?

 

Of course u would. U know.   Once we get past this point, it becomes a delicate inquiry.  

 

I’ll probably be wrong bc I am still researching reliable hearsay - and auction trends.   There’s also a lot of  reliability in seeing how often things repeat and at what price over time.  Those things interest me.  They partially tell me what is important to collect.  Opinions r useful.  But I go on facts as the evidence leads me.  Now that I confirmed all the above, i will see if I can track down Popov’s heirs.  I am a trained historian.  It appears this badge is  a gift between old friends after the war (swapping gifts?) it’s as valid as all the other interesting interpretations. It does not matter.  This badge has no mistakes if looked at by the evidence and Enzio sums it up well.  The 2908 is not a mistake.  I have a friend who most of the FAI license recites. I’ll ask if he can pull a face.  Ur clarity in thinking Enzio is refreshing.  This badge has a mystery that Tifes has substantially solved enough to see if I can find what’s missing.  I heard  Zimbler died and his company went bankrupt after the war. But who knows anything about it’s revival in the 1950s?  

[Bayern]

Hello ,The badge bears the K for Emperor Charles . Charles was Emperor after the death of Emperor Francis Joseph in November of 1916, then the bage was made from December 1916 until November 1918 . By other part all the Gentlemen speaks of a Russian but forgets a possible Galician Popov , Galitzia and Lodomeria were a Crown land of the Empire and their inhabitants were Polish and Ucrainans and Ucrainans used Cyrillic Alphabet . Finally , Why not a Bulgarian Popov ,after all Austria Hungary and Bulgaria were closer and in 1915 ,Allies 

[GdC26]

7 hours ago, Luftmensch said:

Originality of badge is proven.  The quality of the engraving suggests it was not done recently.

 

In my 40 years of collecting I've never seen fakers adding quality old-world engraving to original badges.  Especially one in obscure Russian to obscure personages.

 

There are easier ways to make a profit.

 

Given a choice between saying this is an attempt to deceive

 

OR

 

this is an authentic presentation piece we don't yet understand, I vote for the latter.

 

2 hours ago, Bayern said:

Hello ,The badge bears the K for Emperor Charles . Charles was Emperor after the death of Emperor Francis Joseph in November of 1916, then the bage was made from December 1916 until November 1918 . By other part all the Gentlemen speaks of a Russian but forgets a possible Galician Popov , Galitzia and Lodomeria were a Crown land of the Empire and their inhabitants were Polish and Ucrainans and Ucrainans used Cyrillic Alphabet . Finally , Why not a Bulgarian Popov ,after all Austria Hungary and Bulgaria were closer and in 1915 ,Allies 

I think Enzo, Tomas and I are talking facts, not engaging on speculation about what might have been. The facts are as Enzo,  Tomas and I have stated, and they don’t confirm the authenticity of the dedication (which in itself has two issues requiring explanation: the reference to a famous Russian early aviation pioneer and the reference to the year 1908, a time when (international) aviation was still in its infancy, and international meets had not started yet. A further issue, of course, is why that engraving would appear on an Austrian aviation badge issued some 8-10 years later).
 

The rest, frankly, are matters of speculation, preference and belief. As said, a lot of things are possible, but absent further proof, concluding that the engraving is original seems a stretch. And this wouldn’t be the first original item that has been embellished to enhance its market value. 
 

I’m keeping an open mind, but on the evidence presented Occam’s razor leads me to believe for now that the latter is the more plausible thesis. Let’s see what further factual and verifiable evidence the owner or others adduce in support of the alternative view.

 

Kind regards,

Sandro

[tifes]

5 hours ago, Bayern said:

Hello ,The badge bears the K for Emperor Charles . Charles was Emperor after the death of Emperor Francis Joseph in November of 1916, then the bage was made from December 1916 until November 1918 . By other part all the Gentlemen speaks of a Russian but forgets a possible Galician Popov , Galitzia and Lodomeria were a Crown land of the Empire and their inhabitants were Polish and Ucrainans and Ucrainans used Cyrillic Alphabet . Finally , Why not a Bulgarian Popov ,after all Austria Hungary and Bulgaria were closer and in 1915 ,Allies 

Hi Bayern, no we do not forget about Austrian Galizia, but as I stated above any Ruthen from Austrian Galizia wouldn´t use Russian for AH badge during WW1, even when Russophile. Just to be clear: Engraving is in Russian! Cyrillic alphabet has nothing to do with it, as those three languages (Russian, Ukrainian and Bulgarian) are different. There is a different word for “year” in Ukrainian (год vs. рік) and there would be very different declination of the name “Popov” in Bulgarian.  It´s like saying that Dutch, German and Danish are same because they use Latin alphabet.

 

Regards,

 

Tomas/Tifes      

[Luftmensch]

I repeat: he might have used Russian AFTER the war as a courtesy, if that was Popov's language.

 

Also, if anyone believes Occam's Rasor / the simplest explanation is that this was made to deceive, then show me ONE OTHER original Luftfahrerabz. with a quality engraving that is demonstrably fake.  ONE OTHER....

[RedNoseScout]

I appreciate everyone's feedback.  Tomas has done a wonderful job of explaining the possible reason for 1908 as this was when Popov got apparently started in the flying business.  I am waiting on a reply from a friend who has an FAI pilot data base to see what it reveals on Popov.  I think it's time to post something new!  The evidence doesn't suggest the engraving was made to deceive.  Why not German?   Why not a different date?  It's too easy to ruin a good badge with a bad engraving - and how many of you have seen a bad engraving on a legitimate AH badge?  On the fake badges of course - many.  But on a real, time-period AH badge?

 

After the death of King FJ1 - who passed on away on December 30, 1916, there was a transitionary period in badge design over the  next 5 1/2 months until the final new regs came out on what constituted a proper badge. I intend to post on that as I have some really cool unpublished transitionary pieces.  An area of great interest to me.   Fortunately, we don't have that issue with this badge because it is spot on compliant.

 

This Russian pilot is obscure in the annals of history to most people. He must have been a pretty cool guy and good pilot.   The key to understanding this engraving is fortunately 1908 - the year Popov got started.  We have a story to share with it.   If he had begun in 1915 or some other date, then the evidence wouldn't match and we would have a different conversation.  But it does match with his start date.  Unlike opinions, assertions are based on the evidence.  Given the alignment of facts - the pilot name, the start year of flying career, and the forensics of the badge and engraving itself -   i assert that this was likely a postwar engraving.  The evidence suggests - given the pilot name and date he got started - that this was likely a gift between friends. Beyond that - it is enriched story I am afraid.  What's great is that this rare piece has no mistake based on the evidence - it can be explained.  Forgers rarely think on the level Sandro is  discussing - this is an assertion based on looking at hundreds of forged badges and that conversation deserves a separate link.  

 

Our  badge  has mystery with it - yes - but strictly based on forensic analysis of known explainable  facts - it has no mistakes.  The 1908 can be explained because of Tomas's research.   Stay tuned Tomas for my next new topic on AH case engraved badges.  How many of you have ever own or have ever held a real one?  

 

More importantly,  with all the information about this engraved aircrew  badge, would that stop any of you from wanting to own it? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by RedNoseScout

[GdC26]

26 minutes ago, RedNoseScout said:

Given the alignment of facts - the pilot name, the start year of flying career, and the forensics of the badge and engraving itself -   i assert that this was likely a postwar engraving. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with that, - the question is post which war, and how long post that war   ..... 

26 minutes ago, RedNoseScout said:

  

 

More importantly,  with all the information about this engraved aircrew  badge, would that stop any of you from wanting to own it? 

 

Based on what is before us - yes it would.

 

1 hour ago, Luftmensch said:

 

Also, if anyone believes Occam's Rasor / the simplest explanation is that this was made to deceive, then show me ONE OTHER original Luftfahrerabz. with a quality engraving that is demonstrably fake.  ONE OTHER....

 

 

As already explained, that is not how this works - there is no presumption of originality, originality has to be proven.

 

Unless new evidence is adduced, I think we've gone full circle and will now restart the loop ....

 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

26 minutes ago, RedNoseScout said:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by GdC26

[GdC26]

1 hour ago, Luftmensch said:

Also, if anyone believes Occam's Rasor / the simplest explanation is that this was made to deceive, then show me ONE OTHER original Luftfahrerabz. with a quality engraving that is demonstrably fake.  ONE OTHER....

Ps - oddly, Occams razor does not involve extra points for emphasis ... ?

[GdC26]

On 10/04/2022 at 00:47, tifes said:

Nikolay Yevgrafovich Popov was a pioneer Russian aviator. His interest in flying could be dated back to 1908 when he started as mechanic in flight school of Wright brothers in Paris.

 

On 10/04/2022 at 15:12, tifes said:

I´ve see this badge like 10 years ago (pictures below) and group of Russian speaking collectors (where I somehow belong) was consulted "what we see on the picture".

 

On 10/04/2022 at 15:12, tifes said:

So either it´s engraving real and it has somehow connotation to Russian pioneer airman or it´s just pure fantasy. The same concerns the concept that some pilot/observer from Austrian Galicia would speak officially Russian, moreover in time of WW1.   

It strikes me that hese are the issues to be resolved.

 

Latching on to the 1908 date doesn't resolve them (in fact, according to Tomas, Popov in 1908 was just an engineer, and started to fly only in 1908), nor does emphasizing that the skill of hand engraving is dying out, or that in 40 years of collecting (most of us, including myself, meet that threshold, not that it means much) you have never seen a similarly forged badge.

 

Identification of an Austrian aviator who attended the Wright brother's Paris' flight school and who served in the war as an aviator and survived it might, as might establishing when this badge first hit the market (if that was ten years ago when the Russian collection market was extremely hot, that could certainly be a red flag - Popov may not be well known in the West, but that may be different in Russia). Any evidence on those issues could perhaps help to progress this discussion on the facts, rather than on conviction and belief. 

 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by GdC26

[Luftmensch]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.    You cite Occam's rasor and yet no one can show me in...what...several centuries? of accumulated experience on this thread one other example of this phantom faker who professionally engraves rare badges with obscure but bogus engravings?

 

This discussion is beyond this badge, it's about the inclination of us, given the number of fakes out there, to judge everything we don't understand as fake.

 

You know what would impress the heck out of me, beyond your superior knowledge in Austro-Hungarian badges, is to hear you say, simply....

 

"I don't know."

[GdC26]

19 minutes ago, Luftmensch said:

 

You know what would impress the heck out of me, beyond your superior knowledge in Austro-Hungarian badges, is to hear you say, simply....

 

"I don't know."

Indeed I don’t, and neither do you, Luftmensch. All you have is faith, faith I am indeed lacking.

 

Kind regards,

Sandro

 

ps 1 - it’s “Occam’s raZor”. I wasn’t going to raise that, but now that you insist on repeating the error in a reference that somehow seems to upset you, let’s at least ensure proper spelling going forward.

 

ps 2 - now that I have impressed “the heck out of” you, take deep breath and see this discussion for what it is: just a clash of ideas and perspectives (even if some are indeed better founded than others).

 

ps 3 - research into the Austro-Hungarian/Russian connection might start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_pioneers Rather than basking in faith, I spent some time going to the list and found no obvious connections, but with time and patience, who knows. As said repeatedly, I’m keeping an open mind (another way of saying “I don’t know”?), even if I’m skeptical. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by GdC26

[Luftmensch]

 

I'm impressed with your spelling ability.  You said:

 

"...concluding that the engraving is original seems a stretch. And this wouldn’t be the first original item that has been embellished to enhance its market value."
 

Leaving poor Occam out of it, I ask that you please show us another original Luftfahrerabz. embellished to enhance its market value.  

 

If you can't, to which original items are you referring that you think are germane to this discussion?

 

If you can't show us these, then why is "concluding that the engraving is original...a stretch"?   On what do you base your opinion?

 

Poor Occam again?   Did he collect Austrian badges?

 

And in the absence of anything but your open-minded negative bias, I think the very existence of this fascinating badge tips the scales. 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Luftmensch