Flik 58j Commander Oskar Fekete Case Engraved Austro-Hungarian Pilot Badge

[RedNoseScout]

My research shows there are only two known caed engraved AH pilot badges.  Does anyone want to give comment?  
 

I know of only four case engraved pilot badges of the central powers - if u go by the three leading text books.  
 

Two are pictured bellow.  On the right is the AH pilot badge worn by Oksar Fekete.  My grandfather is in the background photo for the curious. 

For pleasure is the reverse side and the engraving of Oskar Fekete’s beautiful all original classic Zimbler AH pilot badge - the make and model u already know.  There is no doubt it is his.  

For those who demand more (I have a hunch I already know who u r ?)  I provide w deep gratitude to the tireless historian Robert Vienfurter who happily published (I’m sure) Fekete’s  Daily Mission Report below.   

 

The signature is spot on. The military shorthand - last name period then the first  2 letters of a first name.  What does that tell u about the man’s military character? 

I bought this unknown -  the pilot’s name - it had long been forgotten.   I got lucky.  But that’s partly because I knew where to look.  Now I need help. 

 

I need Fekete’s military records and post war life and a picture of him.  He was a capable administrator.  He survived the war. How many kills did he have?  Was he a desk job man because of injury?   There is joy and adventure in his rediscovered story.  This is what a real named case-engraved badge looks like.  I hope u like it.  Some of u might even be blown away.   ?  I was.  This is the tyoe of memorabilia I’ll be publishing.  For the specialist,  note the maker mark on flat metal and the rivets. 

 

Any help in ur enjoyment of an answer or comment on information is much appreciated.  I’m bringing them back to life one story out a time.  

 

 

[tifes]

to RedScoutNose: what you mean by phrase "here are only two known cased engraved AH pilot badges". Like two in total? Kidding right? There are dozens of them. Example of really top-notch piece:  https://www.emedals.com/an-extremely-rare-gold-austrian-pilot-s-badge-to-an-austrian-ace-hauptmann-otto-jindra , which is really unique, made in gold and belonged to Captain Otto Jindra, flying ace and father of Czechoslovakian Air Force.

 

Decorations on the picture: On the left there is badge for field-pilots (2nd type - Karl, 1917) and on the the right there is  privately purchased piece from Zimbler (not officially awarded) with engraving. There is no reference to pilot name "Oskár Fekete" but if you know the provenience. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by tifes
typo

[GdC26]

Another sales pitch. I'm going to bed .... ? .... feel free to wake me up when something exiting happens ......

 

 

 

[RedNoseScout]

GD Santos.  I can live w ur uncharitable remarks bc I am in an inquiry.  The evidence is what it is.  Inquiries r never personal.  They r for revealing the truth.  Even if it includes uninvited  and inappropriate remarks to satiate ur ego.  If I learn more from this site great. If not that’s ok too.  U could have commented one that fabulous badge or the background info on Fekete - but I just keep getting a sense u r going to keep knocking me down. I’m not afraid from making a mistake and learning about it on this site.   No one cares about ur opinion about me - I certainly don’t. Nor does my publisher.   I am interested in learning the truth about what I hold in my hand.   Pl don’t get hooked bc I asked a question or make an assertion on the number of  case engraved badges.  Bottom line is there are not many original ones.   If u stick to the data - I might learn  how smart u really are rather than how important u r.   U certainly have been useful on Popov if again in an unchivalrous way with me. The value is in his the story.   Ur link u sent opened me to a world of useful data and new contacts.  Now if u care to add on Fekete’s story as a living being, I would be honored.  There r others reading and watching.  I hope u will be more useful moving the conversation forward.   Thank u.  

Edited April 13, 2022 by RedNoseScout

[RedNoseScout]

Tifes.  Great reply.   I’m not a big fan of eMedals bc so much stuff is junk (but Barry who owns the site is very interesting) - so we now have 3 known if the eMedal is legit.  I am assuming it is for purposes of this email.  Pretty damn rare stuff - right?  How often do u come across a badge and get to learned who  it belonged to? I e done that many times.  It’s the biggest rush.  I have Fekete’s records partially from Veinfurter.   I figure some of u cats know know where and how to dig up details especial on German sites.  Anyway if u can add more on his bio, Tomas, I would be grateful.  R u a collector by the way?  U have been very helpful to me by the way.  Enzio - do u care to pipe in on this lovely displayed?  

[GdC26]

1 hour ago, RedNoseScout said:

GD Santos.  I can live w ur uncharitable remarks bc I am in an inquiry.  The evidence is what it is.  Inquiries r never personal.  They r for revealing the truth.  Even if it includes uninvited  and inappropriate remarks to satiate ur ego.  If I learn more from this site great. If not that’s ok too.  U could have commented one that fabulous badge or the background info on Fekete - but I just keep getting a sense u r going to keep knocking me down. I’m not afraid from making a mistake and learning about it on this site.   No one cares about ur opinion about me - I certainly don’t. Nor does my publisher.   I am interested in learning the truth about what I hold in my hand.   Pl don’t get hooked bc I asked a question or make an assertion on the number of  case engraved badges.  Bottom line is there are not many original ones.   If u stick to the data - I might learn  how smart u really are rather than how important u r.   U certainly have been useful on Popov if again in an unchivalrous way with me. The value is in his the story.   Ur link u sent opened me to a world of useful data and new contacts.  Now if u care to add on Fekete’s story as a living being, I would be honored.  There r others reading and watching.  I hope u will be more useful moving the conversation forward.   Thank u.  

Dear RedNoseScout,

As I noted in the threat on the - let's call it the - Popov badge you posted, reading is an art. However personal you may want to take it, "Another sales pitch. I'm going to bed .... ? .... feel free to wake me up when something exiting happens ......" is a comment about your posts, which are filled with hyperbole like "I know of only four case engraved pilot badges of the central powers ....  Two are pictured bellow." but tend to be thin on facts.

 

You want to assess my knowledge, feel free to check out my posts and reputation on GMiC.

 

By the way, in case you didn't notice - you may want to use some of the royalties from your upcoming books on a new keyboard, because your current one seems to be malfunctioning (try as you might, you can't type my name right and your message seems ..... garbled)? 

 

Kind regards (we're after all all gentlemen here, even if not all of us seem to be aware of it), 

Sandro

Edited April 13, 2022 by GdC26

[tifes]

1 hour ago, RedNoseScout said:

Tifes.  Great reply.   I’m not a big fan of eMedals bc so much stuff is junk (but Barry who owns the site is very interesting) - so we now have 3 known if the eMedal is legit.  I am assuming it is for purposes of this email.  Pretty damn rare stuff - right?  How often do u come across a badge and get to learned who  it belonged to? I e done that many times.  It’s the biggest rush.  I have Fekete’s records partially from Veinfurter.   I figure some of u cats know know where and how to dig up details especial on German sites.  Anyway if u can add more on his bio, Tomas, I would be grateful.  R u a collector by the way?  U have been very helpful to me by the way.  Enzio - do u care to pipe in on this lovely displayed?  

Sorry, but I can help myself but you said that you prepare a book about AH pilots so I assumed that your knowledge about this stuff must be at very advanced level. However, we are dealing with unreal issues like how many engraved AH pilot/observer badges are still preserved. I don't know as nobody knows it, but I can assure that´s MUCH more than 3 or 4 or 5. I don't have time to google all day long but here is another one (now in the collection of the member of this forum) https://www.sixbid.com/en/h-d-rauch/556/orden-und-ehrenzeichen/576108/orden-und-ehrenzeichen?term&orderCol=lot_number&orderDirection=asc&priceFrom&displayMode=large&auctionSessions=409|12449&sidebarIsSticky=false

 

Oskar Fekete...whatever is the word before "1916", there is letter "Ö". How does it fit to the name "Oskar Fekete" that´s mystery for me. If you would like to know at least basic stuff about Hptm. Fekete try "Rangliste der kuk Heeres". That´s the first thing to do. See below.  

 

Regards,

 

t.

 

 

[Elmar Lang]

On 11/04/2022 at 23:14, RedNoseScout said:

My research shows there are only two known caed engraved AH pilot badges

 

Hello,

as previously noticed by Tifes, I would like to add some further info.

 

Actually I cannot agree with the above statement from RNS, because me alone, I own two cased, engraved Feldpilotenabzeichen; one from the estate of Lt. Feldpilot Johann Mandl and another one, belonged to an until now unknown Feldpilot, received as a present from a certain "Käthl": a typical, austrian nickname for "Katharina".

 

The "Mandl" badge, is in its original maker's, presentation case of Messrs. Spitz, Vienna, while the other one, made by Rothe, Vienna, is preserved in a Zimbler case, where the fitted, inner compartment and the lid's silk cushion reveal that the badge is stored in that case since a very long time.

 

Both badges are made of silver with gilt details and enamels.

 

I am also aware of other pre-1918 engraved Feldpilotenabzeichen and Luftfahrerabzeichen, now residing in private collections.

 

As a matter of interest, I would like to post some pictures of my two badges.

 

 

[RedNoseScout]

Good and Kind Enzio.  Thank you for ur reply.  I never thought there could only be two case engraved badges and in Pandis’s book he separates the engraved badges from the cases to really make it hard to get a reliable heads up.  What’s enjoyable is learning perhaps a couple of handful case engraved badges still exist. And seeing them!  Still rare specimens.  I’ll start forming my observations as questions to lower the heat on this site.  I’m not the final answer but I know how to ask good questions and eventually get the answers.  Everything I am doing is an inquiry. There is no right or wrong - just evidence (sometimes) on what survives.  And sometimes that is not much to go on.   Ur Rothe is a lovely sample.  I assume it’s undocumented as r most badges. Even without provenance, it is still a legit badge  and engraving. Congratulations  on owing one of the most highly sought and rarest and beautiful  AH pilot badges.  U must have had it a long time.  What I don’t understand is why it was fitted  in a Zimbler case as Zimbler never sold Rothe badges.  Is it a married case to the badge?  Ur not a novice. Whatever ur answer I appreciate ur insights.   The light reflection on ur Rothe makes it difficult to see the maker mark on the pin of ur very rare and lovely sample.  Is ur pin stamped by the maker?  I’m attaching a copy of  the Rothe and  Nephew maker mark. I note the Rothe Crown Jewels r missing on ur sample and mine.  Do u collect AH and German Pilot Badge group sets?  FAI license?  Do u have an estimate based on ur personal knowledge how many case engraved pilot or aircrew badges exists? How many Rothe AH Pilot badges exist?   Someone just offered me a hat pin badge from the Austrian Air Force.  It’s nice to see the rich flow of history Austria is honoring in the design from the Empire era.  Ur replies r alway much anticipated and appreciated.  Erik

[Luftmensch]

Rotary engraving...you mean like this?

 

 

Rotary engraving can be spotted a mile away.

 

I would suggest you have the badge in hand before you go all forensic on us.

 

If anyone out there has the guts to take a dremel tool to a delicate original badge like this then he deserves a medal for bravery...and a strait jacket for stupidity.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Luftmensch

[GdC26]

55 minutes ago, Simius Rex said:

 

The photos posted by the OP and enlarged on the desktop are more than sufficient to plainly see the glaring and unmistakable characteristics of modern rotary engraving. 

 

If these glaring details of the engraving of the OP's badge escapes your capability of recognizing, then I would suggest that you may be dismally unqualified to intelligently comment on this subject.  Instead, you should try re-reading my post, studying my photo, and maybe you might learn a thing or two about spotting modern rotary engravings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Makes sense (as Simi's comments generally do). I think this also explains why the back  of the wreath looks like it has been freshly sanded, and lacks all patina - compare with the badge posted by Enzo.

Kind regards,

Sandro

[Luftmensch]

Simi "generally" makes sense?  Well Simi's redoubled  plea to be the authority here makes me wonder about the particular cases in which he hasn't made sense....

 

Gentlemen, in the annals of wasted time, our correspondence on these two threads has been possibly the least productive time I've ever spent.

 

A long life to you all.

[GdC26]

Nobody forced you to participate Luftmensch, and your contributions have mostly been personal attacks on those who disagreed with your central thesis, viz., "they don't engrave like they used to".

 

So if you don't care to engage on the issues being debated (like the sanding marks on the back of this badge, or the "Ö" that casts doubt on the attribution to Fekete) and instead continue to prefer to cut into another member who dares to disagree with you, then maybe this indeed is not the forum for you.

 

Plenty of alternatives without "Gentleman" in the name, so back to Facebook I say.

 

Sincerely yours, 

Sandro

Edited April 15, 2022 by GdC26

[Graf]

Nicely stated Sandro !

[RedNoseScout]

SR et al

 

if anything, I've unfortunately exposed a great weakness about this site.  These last two threads I’ve posted showing engraved badges has turned some responses into an obvious hatchet jobs.

 

Notice when Vince speaks up to say that this is a period engraving... why is he is ignored?  Notice when Tomas is rebuffed  by John for saying a steersman is not a "flying job" - again the comment is ignored.  And when I politely point out the ridiculously obvious that someone has stuffed a Rothe badge into a Zimbler case, I’m ignored.  The obvious gets ignored and  each time it becomes an opportunity for one the complaining crows to sidestep and repeat the insultingly insane canard that these r fake engravings on real badges.  

 

There is no judge in this courtroom.... no moderator.  It’s a jungle for opinions only.  

 Every argument I post will be ignored or swatted away by a select few claiming fiefdom for their righteous opinion.  Reading the recent posts  it’s become  a street fight on an unmoderated forum.  

 

I have received quite a few private emails from world class collectors and dealers with decades of experience who no longer post on this site. One even wrote me in reply to the wild comments being made:

 

—-

 

You say crazy? I say stupid. Elmar (Enzo) is the only person on GMIC who is worth reading, when it comes to AH pilot badges.  R.

 

2022-04-14 17:57 GMT+02:00

>

> There r some crazy people on GMIC lol but I love Enzo. 

 

—-

 

 

It is clearly obvious that I am only digging a deeper hole if I  keep posting.  It’s probably a waste of my time to write more but I share it for the inexperience reader who may find use in it:

 

My first observation  — that if the engraving were done with a rotary pen, Enzo, Tomas and Sandro would have been immediately on my tail pointing it out upfront.  Their initial silence speaks volumes. I also note Tomas isn’t wasting his time nor John anymore on these threads.  For good reason. Enzo’s judgment I most respect.  And he is silent for good reason too.  

 

As was told to me yesterday by one  the greatest living museum conservators who handles priceless  artifacts,  he learned a long time ago never to pronounce on the authenticity of an object that he cannot examine in hand, and with his own lighting and magnification equipment.  What appears one way in a photograph may appear completely different "in life".   Might good advice for the crows on this site. 

 

By the way,  SR , I know exactly what u meant -  by plunge marks from fake Vietnam Zippo lighters.  I lived thru that war and we collected them back then.  They are LARGE and obvious... it is a heart-felt exaggeration - as someone said - you can see them from 10 feet across the room.   Fekete is much more refined - this engraving - and I have expert jewelers who have seen this engraving.  It was pointed out to me by another dealer w 40 years experience that u and Sandro make a good team. He's an excellent cheerleader. 

 

Although SR I don't see u holding urself out per se as the "expert" on A-H badge engravings from Rock Hill, South Carolina, I am wondering if u have been put up to do a hit job on this innocent badge.    Maybe I splashed without paying my obeisance to the household gods on this site, except now it’s plunge marks instead of the 1908 gifting date.  I operate openly in good faith.  Maybe not w the right eloquence for this site. Fortunately I’m getting info on the bios from fellow doctorates and researchers who care about what is important. This too is my last post on these two threads - further from anyone would seem superfluous, silly.  

[GdC26]

RedNoseScout, (or Erik, as I understand), 

 

I understand your disappointment on the lack of applause, but this is forum I the tradition of Rick Research, so we deal in facts here. Based on the discussions so far, on the two badges you presented ihere recently (the Ppopov badge and the one under discussion here), I believe these facts are as follows:

 

• Both badges are contemporary originals (dixit Enzo, Tomas, Sandro);
• However, that is not what defines their value: that value lies in the engravings (dixit RedNoseScout, Enzo, Tomas, Sandro);
• Moreover, Tomas has handled the Popov badge and considered it bad, along with others who examined it at the time. The badge went unsold.
• The engraving on the Popov badge seems to be done by hand, the engraving on the badge shown here may be done by machine (dixit Simius Rex). Either way, even if both are hand engraved, hand engraving is not a final authenticator (disxit Enzo, Tomas, Sandro).
• The badge presented here shows exntsive recent sanding marks on the back that eradicated all patina. Those  require explanation. One explanation could be that the badge was prepared for engraving (dixit Sandro).
• The engravings of both badges seem to contain little "glitches" that may be there on purpose, to avoid criminal liability for forgery (the "ö" in this badge, the "Serg. (if that is what is says as per RedNoseScout, Enzo and Kasle) in the other (dixit Sandro)).
• the historic context of the Popov badge requires explanation, especially if you, Enzo and Kale are correct on the "Serg.", because aviation iwas in its infancy in 1908 (the year mentioned in the engraving); there were few aviators and most were well known (dixit Tomas); and Russia and Austria were enemies in WWI, so it is hard to see why a 1917 Austrian aviation badge would bear a dedication to an (as yet: unknown) Russian aviation pioneer, or one that only started flying in 1909. 

Vince can speak for himself, but I think his conclusion was more cautious than you make it out to be.

His exact words were:

 

Hmmm, very interesting discussion. My knowledge of K.u.K badges is fairly weak, and I tend to avoid making any pronouncements due to the level of fakery. However, I'm going with my original feeling about this one, that the engraving is period and not some shambolic faker's attempt at enhancing value. Why this curious engraving is on this particular badge is certainly mysterious, but should not be dismissed outright.

 

And whether Enzo's case and badge are mismatched is hardly relevant to the discussion of the badges you presented (but again Enzo can speak to that if he wishes).

 

You and the dealer you refer to are absolutely correct that the best way to authenticate a piece is in hand inspection. In that sense, the forum is indeed limiting,. The problem with that argument for the Popov badge though is that it WAS inspected by Tomas and others when it hit the market (over) a decade ago, and was dismissed then as bad, by Tomas and others (as Tomas stated, it went unsold).

 

On your last point, I don't consider or hold myself out as an expert on anything, but try to apply research, logic and reason to see if things add up. In this case, for the reasons set out above, I don't think they do, but as always. I'm absolutely open to rational debate.

 

And as said, I fully understand your disappointment at the lack of applause: we all have made collecting-mistakes (God knows I have), or at least have had pieces in our collection criticized (God knows I have), but that does not define us. What defines us is how we deal with that. 

 

If there are points I have overlooked in the summary of facts above, or that could help explain matters  feel absolutely free to raise them . This is an open debate, as far as I'm concerned, in the spirit of Rick Research: fact based, and with some humor if possible.

 

There are no Gods here, and no hired hands - just people trying to learn.

 

Kind regards,

Sandro

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by GdC26

[VtwinVince]

This is a very interesting discussion above all else, and some of the badges shown are quite incredible. Regarding numbers of engraved badges, that's anyone's guess, but if the number of German examples is anything to go by, there are a fair number floating around. I will defer to opinions which come from those with intimate knowledge of the physical properties of legitimate period engraving, but I believe coming to a conclusion based solely on photos is not possible in this case.

[tifes]

Once again and last time about so-called „Popov badge “. I was never arguing that engraving is late fake, but nobody knows what this engraving means as the name doesn’t fit anybody who might come into consideration. Only one person with connotation to the year 1908 (more or less) is N. E. Popov (which I’ve advocated then as I do now), but if we accept the theory that name in Russian azbuka is attributed to certain either Anton or Alexander/Alexey Sergeyevich then bad luck. There was no such person in Imperial Russian aviation. Collectors/ experts on Imperial Russia Air Force were consulted then and their finding was that during WWI on the Russian side there were more Popovs (if I remember correctly 3 were identified), but all of them joined Imperial Russian Air Force closely before or during WWI and, that´s most important, they had different names, which couldn’t anyhow fit above-mentioned engraved first named and “otchestvo”. Popov is very common name in Russia (like Johnson in US) and most probable theory was (but also unconfirmed, of course) that engraving has no connection with pilot/observer of Imperial Russian provenience but it was a gift for somebody who hasn’t anything to do with aviation and the reason for it it´s unknown. For AH collectors per se is such badge very dubious and nobody had any interest to acquire it. So it remained unsold. Period.

Rothe piece is Zimbler case…again we are dealing with something, which has basically no sense. First of all, Rothe didn’t make any official badges, only Zimbler did (with exception of Badge for pilots of seaplanes 1915). Zimbler which won the state contract should deliver certain number of badges in the boxes (it´s in the contract so it can be proved, it´s not something what I made up). Most of the companies procured the boxes through subcontracting, so they contracted third party, which made tailor-made boxes for them and put the company name on inside lid. It´s like today, because it is cheaper. Other companies if they made decoration only for private purchase and in small numbers did not even bother and just purchased boxes directly from cases producers, which might be Rothe case.

Second factor is human. Every pilot had more than one badge. One was officially awarded to him and the rest he bought and got them in various boxes. If the measure fit, he placed whatever badge to whatever box. He didn’t care. It´s like with cuff-links today (at least in my case). Btw, look at your pilot badge (2nd type, Karl 1917) on your picture (left). It´s in Moritz Tiller box! Tiller made uniforms, accessories to uniforms etc., but no decorations. Your badge (whoever made it, looks like Zimbler, at least it has its official form) wasn’t made by Tiller. That´s sure like tomorrow´s sunrise. I have something similar – AH pilot badge, model FJI 1913 in the box from Alexander Sohr company (similar manufacturer like Tiller). There is a comparison with AH observer badge 1917 in original Zimbler case, which is obviously smaller than Sohr box.  

As Sandro mentioned. This is very nice and information-oriented forum for people who like to consult phaleristics. If you are looking for "wow effect" then there is a lot of “specialized” FB group where you can get it. Opening tread with statement that in the whole world there are 2 known engraved badges of AH pilots, sorry that´s ridiculous. We are not talking about Grand Cross MMTO sets from WWI period, for god sake. At this stage I strongly recommend you to get those 2 recommended books from already mentioned Jörg C. Steiner „Das Feldpilotenabzeichen“ and „Das Luftfahrerabzeichen“. Just put it in the google and find them. You should start with them for sure. 

Regards,

t.