BlackcowboyBS

Congrats on that case and especially with this note placed inside of it! Never saw one before, I really like it, Thx for sharing! PS: but this post should be in the third reich section and not weimar!

Slesian Eagle 1st class worn by Dr. Arno Hoffmeister

wow, thats a real beauty, congrats on this one!

Another interesting fact, that might not be well known in the collectors scene. The ribbon of the military merit order of the kingdom of Wuerttemberg changed on 23.rd of September 1818 from a yellow with black side stripes to a dark blue one. In §. 5 of the new statutes it was written down, that active officers had to change from the old version to the new design and ribbon. Lieutenant General von Stockhorn did recieved his commanders croos of the MMO Wuerttemberg before 1818 but wore it untill 1840, when he recieved the new one but still the same class. Here you can see the wearing permission from 1840 granting him the right to wear the new commanders cross of the MMO from Wuerttemberg. isn't it crazy that one needs another permission for just wearing a newer version of an old order which he was allowed to wear for more than 22 years? I think this is really fascinating, what about you?

see additional entry in the hof and staats handbuch from Hanover 1843

I would go along with it!

I would like to present this not quite common certificate. A friend, but very withdrawn collector, has recently acquired this certificate and when I visited him last weekend, he showed it to me. With his permission, I show here the certificate as well as the matching breast star. We see here the deed of a day order from the Grand Duke Karl Leopold Friedrich of Baden to his army corps. The text reads as follows: "To the regiments and detachments of troops of the Army Corps. ACC No. 39 The following Most High Order is hereby announced to the Army Corps. Karlsruhe, October 3, 1841 the Commander of the Grand Ducal Army Corps ... No. 49 I grant the Lieutenant General and Divisionary of the Infantry von Stockhorn permission to accept and wear the Grand Cross of the Ducal House Order of Henry the Lion awarded to him by His Serene Highness the Duke of Brunswick. Karlsruhe, October 2, 1841 Leopold" I have been allowed to place a matching breast star of the HdL, which dates from 1840 to 1855 and is also in the possession of the above collector, on the certificate for a more vivid illustration. The recipient was Lieutenant General Carl Ludwig Wilhelm Christian Heinrich Franz Freiherr von Stockhorn(er). About him I could find the following career data: - Son of Christian Gottlieb August Reinhard Stockhorner von Starein (1726-1807) and his wife Marie Antoinette, born Rohdis von Tunderfeld. - last heir of the II. (older) line of the baronial family Stockhorner von Starein (line extinct with him in the male line) - from 1788 in the military service of Baden (first Junker with the Leibregiment), 1804 Major, 1806 Lieutenant Colonel, 1809 Colonel and Commander of the Leibgrenadier Guard - November 1810 to 1812 artistic director of the Grand Ducal Baden Court Theater in Karlsruhe - since July 13, 1811 married to (Elisabeth) Auguste (Margarethe), born Countess of Leiningen-Heidesheim-Falkenburg (born September 13, 1790) - from 1812 Major General and City Commander of Karlsruhe - 1813 Commander of the former Life Regiment - 1814 Lieutenant General - November 1815 to February 1817 Commanding General of the First Military Command - lastly commander of the third line infantry regiment and ruling general in Mannheim (with the rights of a governor) If I look at the order books in the Landesarchiv Wolfenbüttel, I find the following entry: 84th Appointment of September 30, 1841. A total of 2 Grand Crosses are awarded to the Royal Prussian General of Infantry von Natzmer as well as the Grand Ducal Baden Lieutenant General Freiherr von Stockhorn, there were no more awards on this day within the 84th appointment of members of the Ducal Brunswick Order of Merit of Henry the Lion! (Note that in the above document the Baden officials begin the popular error of demoting the Order of Merit to a House Order!) If one looks in the Hof und Staatshandbuch of 1844, then von Stockhorn appears here for the last time as Grand Cross, in 1845 his name has disappeared, which would come with the usual delay in the transmission of death data with GL Carl von Stockhorn in 1843. In another order book, which was kept later, von Stockhorn is no longer listed, this book was also started after 1844 and lists only the living members of the order, this shows that one should always try to evaluate all sources when researching in the archives, because if one does not know that there are different types and in some award lists the deceased are already no longer listed, mistakes happen quickly. Please, note how fast all this happened, on September 30, 1841 the conferment by Duke Wilhelm took place (in Brunswick?), on October 2 the acceptance as well as the carrying permission by Grand Duke Leopold and on October 3 the announcement to the army corps (in Karlsruhe)! The Hof und Staatshandbuch von Baden shows that my assignment to Carl Freiherr von Stockhorn(er) is correct, he also wears the following orders: Baden House Order of Loyalty Grand Cross of the Military Carl-Friedrich Order of Merit Grand Cross of the Zähringer Lion Baden Military Service Cross for Officers Baden Military Service Award Grand Cross K. k. Austrian Order of the Iron Crown Grand Cross K. k. Austrian Order of Leopold Prussia Red Eagle Order 1st Class Württemberg Military Order of Merit Commander's Cross on Blue Ribbon Hanover Grand Cross of the Order of Guelph Grand Ducal Hessian Ludwigs Order Grand Cross Brunswick Grand Cross of Henry the Lion French Legion of Honor Knight's Cross So a very interesting and highly decorated person, yet I have a few questions for the forum and hope for answers: Does anyone have or know if the award certificate to Lieutenant General von Stockhorn for the Grand Cross HdL still exists and if so where is it located? My collector colleague would be interested in acquiring it. Do you have certificates etc. what you want to show here and can? Would be quite nice if we could get at least digitally here a reunion of the estate! PS: In the court and state handbooks of the Kingdom of Hanover of 1844, however, I do not find any award to the Baden Lieutenant General Carl von Stockhorn, there are only two awards of Grand Crosses to Badeners: 1829 the margrave Wilhelm von Baden and 1830 the Grand Duke Leopold von Baden. It may be, of course, that the Hanoverians were so quick and have already deleted the deceased, but even in the book of 1837 I do not find von Stockhorn! So there is still a need for clarification. He is also not to be found among the commanders, in case the Baden HStHb would have made a mistake in the class.

Well it is not fools meeting but carnival or mardi grass. This badge is maybe a token for participants or guests of the carnival festival 1938 in the south of Germany. It reads: swabian alemannic jester meeting Überlingen on the lake (a.S. means am See, at least this is what I make out of it) 1938

Hello Demir, this is a definition which can't be wrong, because if the osmanic government who awarded people just bought these medals from the turkish mint in Istanbul and no other supplier, then only these medals are oficially awarded pieces from the osmanic state. So if you want to drew the line here, there is nothing wrong with it from a technical aspect. You may have the consequences that some of the contemporary medals made by other manufacteurers do look better than the offically awarded ones. But I prefer to broden the term original, as stated in my first answer to your question: official awarded medal contemporary secondary piece or private purchased contemporary duplicate ... etc. I would do so, because I feel that there are more shades of grey than just pure black and white. If a medal is not an original, then how should you call it besides non original?

Okay Sascha, this is a good point! You convinced me to trust the bar and not the writing, I can live with that.

But this is something I won't follow, a Burkhard isn't close to Philipp Friedrich Wilhelm August so I dare to say that we haven't got a hit here.

well as the second photo claims, that Wilhelm Spathelfer was a teacher before he went to war. The small village he died is called Auchy not Aurhy! also the day of his death seems to be 9th of january not September. You can find a photo of Auchy from 1915 here a map of this area here In this area there was the 6th army corps, which mainly was built by bavarian soldiers, operating. Some text on this area also here and there! This might helpy you a bit. PS: v. s. means von seinem

But the writing itself says Uncle Burkhard and Aunt Nadine

Hi Vince, they are all great bars, thats for sure. But none of these bars conflicts with the post from Triadoro. All of your bars are post WW1 and what Triadoro claimed is, that Scharffenberg would never have mixed the order of precendence when building a medal bar before end of WW1. Your bar shown in the middle is not from Scharffenberg so no discrepancy at all. So we can recap: Scharffenberg medal bar made before End of WW1 should have St Henry - Merit Order - Albrecht Order, medal bars post WW1 could be mixed up, maybe even from Scharffenberg, but that point still needs approval! PS: looking at the medal bar shown by Simius Rex it is also a post WW1 medal bar, but maybe not done by Scharffenberg himself but by another jewler who just used the old backside of the original one usings the middle of the old blanket? just my 2ct

Finally we got a bit of a discussion here! I like that. @lewTo be honest, I have thought on that for a long time and asked my self the following question. If I ever would have met Ernst Jünger and seeing him wearing his PlM, while starring at it, I would realize that this can't be the one he was handed over in 1918, but must be one made in 1936 and privatly purchased by him. Would I dare to call it not an original while confronting him? Maybe not. What would I have done, meeting him in 1975 and seeing him with a privatly purchased one after WW2, because he might have lost the one from 1936? What would it felt for him, would he called it not an original PlM? Note: These dates written here by me are all fiction, just a mind game, to find the right way of naming such pieces. @speedytopHi Uwe may be duplicate could be the right word, in German we have the word: Zweitstück, but I can't find a better translation than duplicate or like Lew stated privatley purchased 2nd piece? So it might be a PP2P classification?

Gentlemen, I really appreciate this discussion and more so the way it is done. Thx for it.

First: Well I know the Scharffenberg backside like this. Second: I guess I have seen medal bars with Albrecht first then merit order and both with swords, at least this is how I remember them. But if just one of them with swords then he must be worn first, thats for sure.

That's what I would say, but your photos aren't the best, so hard to say.

Sorry, maybe I don't get you right, but are you talking about the missing globus cruciger on the crown abow the coat of arms? (see red circled on the photo) If so, then it looks like this upper part of the crown was just broken and so it is purely damaged and not another version. Or did I get you wrong, then I would like to understand what you are talking about.

yes it is stahlhelm bund

I found this photo of the cross for courage and a photo showing President Selensky awarding such a cross to a nurse in a hospital.

Hello Demir, here comes my more detailed answer. We have had this discussion many times in the German forum and never found an agreement. My very personal opinion is the following: 1. contemporary award pieces: Made by the Turkish Mint in Istanbul and officially presented to the decorated persons, but also when foreign manufacturers made this badge of honor on behalf of the Ottoman Empire and it was presented to authorized recipients. Contemporary means for me until the end of the war. 2. contemporary secondary pieces: Secondary pieces purchased by eligible recipients at their own expense from manufacturers who could produce and sell these pieces before the end of the war, even if they were not listed as official suppliers of the Medal of Honor. 3. post-war award pieces: From officially designated suppliers who served the need for pieces yet to be awarded or resupply for pieces awarded but not yet issued. 4. second pieces purchased after end of war WW1: Pieces purchased from manufacturers by authorized persons as second or replacement pieces. Here I would actually draw the line at 1945, though of course this is squishy. How do you want to designate a badge of honor that was made in 1952, for example, but was acquired by a permittee after he lost everything in WWII and now acquires such a piece? Nevertheless, I draw the line at 1945 for these pieces. 5. productions after 1945: Manufactures of the medals on machines or with tools that were also used for this purpose before 1945. 6. productions after 1945 on new machines and/or as casting, to fool the collectors. As originals I would count the decorations of the groups 1 to 3, pieces of the group 4 are collectible for me, however, they should be marked with the note that they are second pieces after the end of the war and still distinguish here whether the manufacturer produced already before 1918 or not. Specimens from group 5 and 6 do not count as originals for me anymore, group 6 should be clearly classified as a fake.

Hi Demir, very interesting questions and you opend up a mine field for the collectors scene! I guess there will be heavy discussions going on. I will give my thoughts on it tonight, when I do have more time to answer, but I am looking forward to reading the discussion upon this topic.

Regierungsrat Wilhelm Arendts breast is unbelievable!! Deeply impressed!

This guys medalbar is hilarious!