peter monahan

Fascinating thread for those of us outside the UK, where, generally speaking we have one police service per municipal area. Of course, having said that, I have to concede that in Ottawa we have the local force and then, for National Capital Commission properties and sites, the RCMP. And private security for embassies in many cases. Still... Tower Yeoman, Parks Police, London constabulary, and...? I think that the river police are simply a division of the London force but are there any others?

Les, you sound as if you have some considerable knowledge of these things. Thank you for correcting my mistaken guess - it was a gues - on the ceremonial nature of the spear. What you say makes perfect sense. No personal knowledge of the Turkana, except that they exist, but that may give Gary a starting place in his search for a difintie ID. Thanks again.

Thanks, dave, for that info. Given the political situation in Palestine, and the British Imperial tradition of 'police forces' who were actually soldiers, I think it a safe bet that many if not most of the Palestine Police were ex-Army.

If it is in fact a segeant major's sleeve crown there would certainly have been a QVC version. I say 'if' because my knowledge of early badges is like the Missouri River: a mile wide but an inch deep!

One source, which I haven't tried to verify, suggests that the 41st was a 'problem' unit, recruited 19th century style from jails and the lower classes of Montreal society, including a number of 'Russians' whose language skills and military deportment were both deficient. As I say, I haven't followed this up but certainly, in the rush to recruit, there were men and groups of men taken on strength in the CEf who wouldn't likely have been considered in less trying times.

And done an excellent job of it too, IMO.

Gary I suspect you'll do better on an ethnology/anthropology site. Tribal weaponry has distinctive characteristics which can be broadly identified, I think: 'southern Africa', 'sub Saharan' and so on, but since all were made in local workshops, ususally with whatever metal was available, there are rarely definitive markings or absolutely conclusive identifiers. I would agree with Mickey that a two part spear is more likely to be ceremonial than a true weapon but other than that, and the fact that it was made from available sheet steel, I hev no insight to offer. Here are two sites which may be of some slight help, the first a commercial dealer and the second a gallery. http://www.rrtraders.com/weapons.htm http://www.hamillgallery.com/SITE/Spears.html

The information on Richards suggest what I would have supposed, that most of th 'British Constables' were ex-military. The Police Mobile Force established in 1944 was made up of British servicemen and the whole force was made laibel for military service during WWII, which argues military rather than police origins, IMO. It was very much a paramilitary force and previous service and hence 'reliability' were probably more important than extensive police experience. It's also likely the case that not a lot of British coppers would have been lining up for work out there, for various reasons and ex-servicemen have always provided a ready pool of 'good men' in the far reches of the Empire! My tuppence worth. Peter

Amos Some basic information on possible recipients would help. It looks European as opposed to British but given the rather odd colour scheme could be an award from a fraternal or religious order, so any info. at all on who or where it came from might help. Peter

Gentlemen I've been following this post with some interest, as I have a little interest but no real knowledge of things African, based on a brief stay there in my foolish youth. So, I am going to request that someone hifgher up the food chain than I move it to the appropriate forum: 'Africa'. I trust that doesn't annoy or confuse anyone. Cheers, Peter

Simple marching compases for that period seem to be selling on ebay for between $150-200 US, so I'd guess that an aviation version might be worth double that range. otherwise, I'm afraid, I have no real information for you.

This is a bit of a sticky area for collectors in general. Several decades ago now I recall a discussion about the fact that the 'new chap' in charge in the office concerned with such things was raking a hard line. Apparently his predecessor, either from policy or personal inclination, had been very good about providing information to enquirers on recipients of the various orders, based on serial numbers and so on . This chap, however, was taking the view, expressed quite forcibly I understand that 'If you're asking because you have that piece, we want it back!', which understandably alarmed those who had invested in examples of the orders for their collections. I'm not sure what the current attitude is but I think that infromation, or at least rumour, had the effect of driving some of the collectors and the pieces underground.

Fascinating. One wonders when he made the 'jump' to Canada and, evn more intriguing, whether he is the same man as the volunteer ambulance driver, in which case he's be entitled to a 1914 or 1914-15 Star as well in all likelihood. It appears that he married only in 1913 [in Toronto] so that doesn't help.

Certainly nothing I've ever seen and I doubt that the use of the Garter motto is an authorized one. Based on the 'bust' og Henry and the quality [poor] of the work, I'd guess that it is in fact an 'International Order', as you so diplomatically put it, or soemthing similar.

Leigh Any comments on the results obtained with your wonder cream? Always happy to hear whether or not someone has come up with a good/bettre/best treatment for old leather. Peter

If you wish the roots of this tradition, I believe you need to look to the 'Black Brunswickers' of the Napoleonic period and their spiritual descendants in the German cavalry of the 19th century. Pity the SS made the skull so unpalatable as a device to most modern users.

On a vaguely related note, I was just in Cuba for a week, last week, and saw Che everywhere! However, he phiz was almost entirely on tee shirts, cigar boxes, ash trays and jewelry, while all of the dozen or so statues and busts I saw in parks and outside government buildings were of Jose Marti. Not sure what if anything it signifies, but thought it interesting.

I think I can just make it out but you're right, its hard to see. Not a terribly attractive medal either, in my opinion, but then no one is likely to award it to me so that shouldn't matter! Thanks for your continued research and postings.

Very nice, Jerry. When I win the lottery I may have a chap I know paint me up a couple as coffee tables. Our re-enacting brigade has both a Corps of Drums [and fifes] and several very talented artists, who have decorated the drums. Something else to put on the list for the day-dream man cave!

Well spotted, Jerry. Though I did like Hugh's theory too!

Well done, Gary! Les is correct about leather items being essentially impossible to date accurately except by evidence other than the item itself. His point about old iron is also a very pertinent one. A friend is actually an expert in Viking Age smithing and has discovered that it is almost impossible to make artifacts above a certain [small] size on charcoal forges, which is what I believe African smiths used. That and the sheer cost of iron meant that nothing was made of iron if another material would do, even in medieval and early modern Europe, but of course that iron tools and weapons were cared for and often passed down for decades.

Hela is correct: additional information will help substantially to increase the likelihood of finding the information you're looking for.

One tends to forget that significant numbers of the officers and men wounded in action were later returned to duties other than front line service. My research into the CEF suggests that by 1917-18 tens of thousands of men were engaged in carrying parties, construction of trenches and roads and so on, having been judged fit for duty but not for the trenches. Presumably any able officer so judged could take the place of a fitter men in an important but less demanding 'rear echelon' job. In fact, I suspect that many of the 'red tabs' heartily despised by the front line troops may well have fit this description. I wonder if McKay was one such.

ilja, do you mean that Commandant Tarpaga has been awarded the medal? I can't pick it out under the fouragerre on his uniform.