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..this bar belongs to OTL zD Steneberg - he is wearing the RAO 4 from his father...

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Werner-- have you identified #373: RAO4Xw, 70/71 NK, 66 NK, 1897?

The "Hoflakai" types with so many awards are going to be possible some day. We just need more Research Gnomes doing CIVILIANS.

Werner and I are too old to distract from WW1--that is 100 years next year and we have to get everything done for the 100th anniversary... right? :catjava:

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I forgot to mention-- look at the Ernestine Roll page. See all the little check marks down the left margin? Those--I've learned from transcribing hundreds of thousands from over half a dozen German states--indicate that the usual "sign this receipt and return when you get your gong" paperwork WAS completed. There are notations in the universal "Bemerkungen" column if, in fact, somebody did not--or a piece was returned because they were dead before receipt.

Now see the BIG checkmarks on some of the names... and go over to THEIR "Remarks." Big checkmark on a name always meant Dead-and-Returned.

This is again, evidence that your bar WAS his...that his heirs did NOT return the EH3a.

Sometimes being a Research Gnome is like doing forensic tax auditing for criminal prosecutions. :speechless1::catjava:

Thanks for providing a glimpse into the research that can determine the outcome. Sure glade his widow had not returned the insignia, with a full scale war raging on it was probably the last thing on her mind. I suspect the majority of States didn't have some method of listing returns on death of recipient which for collectors can act as a filter to separate original bars and ones put together at a later date. It would be conceivable for a family member to recreate a bar during the post war era to replace the original that had been lost, or destroyed in the war. It would be something to see two identical bars, maybe under those circumstances with the original resurfacing.

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Actually duplicate bars were not that unusual for the sort who "needed" one set for a uniform and another for a civilian frock coat. Some states apparently had departments which did nothing but read obits to snatch awards back--easier for locals than faraway foreigners, obviously. I've trancribed rolls with Inspector Javert-ish clerks' notations down the margin when somebody of a... certain age MIGHT be "coming up for a return" that show tabs were still being kept... "alive xx.xxx.xx in YZ." Depending on the sheer bloody mindedness, some awards were still being demanded into WW2--when the political entity that had bestowed them ceased to exist in 1918. In such cases, that is the only paper trail we find that Recipient A was in fact still above ground many years later!

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Actually duplicate bars were not that unusual for the sort who "needed" one set for a uniform and another for a civilian frock coat. Some states apparently had departments which did nothing but read obits to snatch awards back--easier for locals than faraway foreigners, obviously. I've trancribed rolls with Inspector Javert-ish clerks' notations down the margin when somebody of a... certain age MIGHT be "coming up for a return" that show tabs were still being kept... "alive xx.xxx.xx in YZ." Depending on the sheer bloody mindedness, some awards were still being demanded into WW2--when the political entity that had bestowed them ceased to exist in 1918. In such cases, that is the only paper trail we find that Recipient A was in fact still above ground many years later!

I'm just floored to learn how far the authorities would go to keep track :speechless1: of their awards. I read an article that the orders were extremely costly to manufacture which was probably a strong factor in wanting them back. Was there a change of policy later in the 19th century that some German States would allow the family keep the decoration after the recipient died? It would be correct to think it was only the diplomats, senior military who could afford having a duplicate made at his own expense and they'd be private purchase examples that might differ in quality to the ones supplied by the government. I don't think the authorities would be so generous in issuing a second bar. Thanks

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Actually with entitlement it was "easy" to get duplicates that were exactly the same... because manufacturers like Godet etc etc WERE the ones providing issue pieces... so a double from them privately purchased was identical. After 1918 was another story, with a lot of those firms out of business.

From Rolls notes, sometimes all it took was a sob story or a personal relationship and "let X's mother keep his Y" happened.

Your guy won the gold versus silver-gilt random lottery... when neither mattered as much as now. Remember when a silver dollar was... one dollar?

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Actually with entitlement it was "easy" to get duplicates that were exactly the same... because manufacturers like Godet etc etc WERE the ones providing issue pieces... so a double from them privately purchased was identical. After 1918 was another story, with a lot of those firms out of business.

From Rolls notes, sometimes all it took was a sob story or a personal relationship and "let X's mother keep his Y" happened.

Your guy won the gold versus silver-gilt random lottery... when neither mattered as much as now. Remember when a silver dollar was... one dollar?

That's a really great point. It must have happened all to often where the authorities would bend the rules in allowing the devastating wife or mom keep the insignia. I often come across broken bars and what comes to my mind right away is the work of greedy dealers, unknowing collectors & time itself. Disturbing as this sounds it could be conceivable that the family would be obliged to break apart the bar in order to return the insignia as requested or pay a fee if they had that luxury. I guess there are many circumstances for a broken bar :( but none have a good ending....

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It must have happened all to often where the authorities would bend the rules in allowing the devastating wife or mom keep the insignia.

Devastating or devastated? I would imagine that would make a difference. :whistle:

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Devastating or devastated? I would imagine that would make a difference. :whistle:

That works :beer:

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We've had a few legimately posthumous bars posted here-- can probably dig them back up searching on "posthumous." But until the research verifies that, in far too many cases it was a nitwit who "only collects" whatever has been torn off.

Most people--even "collectors"-- do not CARE who the original person was. Boggles our minds as Research Gnomes, but that's how it is. To us, how anyone can appreciate the LOOKS of a bar without wanting to know how and why and where its "who"-original owner lived to rack 'em up is incomprehensible. That's the whole POINT to a medal or ribbon bar--it is, right there, a life story. Can't get that from an EK1 or any other lone piece.

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Not always..... :whistle:

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That is a cool bar. I really like the backing!

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Interesting group, and unusual to a Bavarian with the PKOM. What LSD is that second from right?

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Interesting group, and unusual to a Bavarian with the PKOM. What LSD is that second from right?

The 20 year cross for Gendarmes.

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I recently picked this up as a restoration project.  Plus, I don't have a group with a NC Hungarian Medal.  It is an odd construction.  It almost looks like it was put together in pieces.  The 1st two ribbons with missing pendants are sewn up with yellow thread and have suspension clasps while the rest are sewn up with red thread and have no clasps.  The Hungarian drape is different than the others.

I know the 1st missing pendant would be the Zahringen Merit Cross but the 2nd solid green ribbon is a bit of a mystery.  It probably was a bit darker originally based on the reverse side color.  I can't come up with anything Baden and the Saxon Labor Medal seems like a stretch.  Any suggestions?

 

RKGroupA.JPG

RKGroupB.JPG

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That is a wonderful Prussian Red Cross bar.  It looks like it was in a flood.  :-(

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Nothing immediately springs to mind in the case of the second ribbon - but could the first ribbon be that for the Brunswick War Merit Cross on non-combatant ribbon? The medal would hang a little high up admittedly but it would certainly fit the overall bar combination-wise.

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