Rolls

[Chris Dale]

Great work is being done here!

Cheers

Chris

[Chris Dale]

...an example for the last...

001803536 Abafi Pr Soldat Kamerun Schutztruppe Kamerun (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 07 1906

001800003 Abanda II. Pr Soldat Kamerun Polizeitruppe Kamerun (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001805101 Abanda II. Pr Soldat Kamerun Schutztruppe Kamerun (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 05 1903

001800004 Abanda III. Pr Gefreiter Kamerun Polizeitruppe Kamerun (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001803537 Abanda III. Pr Hornist Kamerun Schutztruppe Kamerun (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 07 1906

001800006 Abanda Pr Soldat Kamerun Polizeitruppe Kamerun (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001805102 Abang Pr Soldat Kamerun Schutztruppe Kamerun (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 11 1906

001805105 Abdalla Fadl Mustafa Pr Ombascha DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 06 1900

001803538 Abdalla Faragalla Pr Schausch DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 06 1907

001805106 Abdalla Hami? Pr Betschausch DOA Schutztruppe DOA(Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 15 10 1906

001803539 Abdalla Hussen Pr Schausch DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 07 1906

001803540 Abdalla Hu?ein Pr Askari DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 06 1907

001805108 Abdalla Ibrahim Pr Sol DOA Schutztruppe DOA(Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 15 10 1906

001803541 Abdalla Raschid Pr Ombascha DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 07 1906

001805109 Abdalla Senab Pr Askari DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1897

001805110 Abdalla Ziada Pr Betschausch DOA Schutztruppe DOA(Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 15 10 1906

001800011 Abdalla Pr Askari DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001800012 Abdalla Pr Askari DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001800013 Abdalla Pr Askari DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001800014 Abdalla Pr Ombascha DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001800015 Abdallah Achmed Pr Ombascha DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001800017 Abdallah Diga Pr Schausch DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001800018 Abdallah Faraji Pr Askari DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001805112 Abdallah Mohamed Pr Ombascha DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 15 02 1901

001800021 Abdallah Pr Askari DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001805113 Abdallah Pr Soldat DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 07 1893

001805114 Abdel Cher Achmed Pr Askari DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 15 05 1896

001800022 Abdel Fatah Pr Ombascha DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001800023 Abdi Ali Pr Askari DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001800024 Abdrachman II. Pr Askari DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001800025 Abdrachman Pr Ombascha DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001800026 Abdrachman Pr Schausch DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001800027 Abdrachmani Pr Askari DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

001805116 Abdu Farag Pr Askari DOA Schutztruppe DOA(Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 15 10 1906

001800028 Abdudelai Pr Ombascha DOA Schutztruppe DOA (Farbiger) J Pr PsKVM 2 01 10 1916

Wow! That's truly amazing... I'd love to see this list when its finished! Note the sudden rush of KVM awarded in DOA after the blockade runner "Marie" brought a stack of medals with them in 1916...

Keep up the good work

Chris

[christerd]

Great work ! Any moore to be published ? I thinking on Hansa Kreuzes , Würtemberg ?

Christer

[Ulsterman]

Hansa- hrumph. i paid the great city of Hamburg a LOT of money for the xeroxed rolls and they mailed me an empty box!

Someone in Holland however has them and apparently they may be being worked on.

Hope springs eternal.

[GODISHIGH]

how can i access the rolls? This is a piece of history that is very interesting and I would like to get a copy of some rolls

thanks

john

[christerd]

_{All quite on the Rolls front} Anyone knowing something to be published 2012-2013 ?

Meanwhile I keep on on my own

Christer

[Ulsterman]

Nothing known by me- although Rick has sent me a few corrections and I believe he finished another roll. What are you working on?

[christerd]

The main problem is that even the rolls published is impossible to find

I have read that Württemberg WO 1x is published for example , but I have never seen it.

Meanwhile I do my own databases piece by piece

Christer

[Ulsterman]

Thanks- who published the WO1x? I shall call Rick. Maybe he has an extra.

What are you working on? Anything Hansa?

[christerd]

Hallo Ulsterman, right now I´m just trying to list Finnish awards and Swedish Sword Order to Germans , but I would like to

look at Bremen, Hamburg or Lübeck since they are in so many groups and ribbon bars ....

But maybe I will do something completely different , a much ignored award that I dont think anyone have make a roll for

Württemberg CharlottenKreuz ... maybe I can then ID my small ribbon bar ?? se topic http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/48958-a-ribbon-bar-to-lippe-doc/page__hl__%2Blippe+%2Bdoc__fromsearch__1

It seems that the Charlotten Rolls are in the archive, so now I will try my Deutsch and see if I can get a copy in some way .

Best regards from Sweden

Christer

[Dave Danner]

A small addition: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/52785-list-of-decorations-to-prussian-officers-and-men-in-1914/

[Deruelle]

Hi

Someone knows if a book with all Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th with X will be published soon ? I know that some german collectors have worked on those rolls, but still nothing today.

Roth has published one book but rolls is not complete and all medals awarded later in the war are missing

Christophe

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Friends,

next one will be the military awards of Mecklenburg-Strelitz.

I hope, until springtime I am ready to deliver.

If anybody is interested, please PM me.

Greetings

Daniel

[Ulsterman]

Hi Friends,

next one will be the military awards of Mecklenburg-Strelitz.

I hope, until springtime I am ready to deliver.

If anybody is interested, please PM me.

Greetings

Daniel

Me! Me! Moi!!!

[Dave Danner]

I just spent four days in Rudolstadt and one in Greiz.

For Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and Sondershausen, I found the missing records for the awards with Eichenbruch from Sondershausen, and an index of all gemeinsam awards, with a note as to which version was actually awarded (different ciphers). I also got the rolls of the lifesaving medal and the medal for arts and sciences. There is no roll for the 1905 jubilee medal, unfortunately. Apparently, the award criteria was to whomever the Staatsministerium deemed worthy. There were recommendation lists from various agencies, but no indication which were approved. For the Anna-Luisen Orden, the wartime award for women for war aid, there are lists, but index onkly has last name and husband's title, so one would have to go through the individual recommendations to get the additional information. There were only about 300 awards, but I didn't have time to go through them. I still have to go back to Rudolstadt next week (I am in Dresden now) to go through several thousand more pages of recommendations and correspondence to get the missing information on swords recipients. There are still going to be gaps, though. Other units had to provide justification for why someone should receive the Ehrenkreuz, but IR 71 just sent lists with rank and last name.

For Reuss, the report is mixed. There is an index of non-swords awards through 1918, which I have, but there are almost no swords awards in that index (outside of some random awards with swords to Reuss government officials who were also officers in the Beurlaubtenstand). For Reuss junior line, the records of wartime swords awards were destroyed in a bombing raid in World War II. For Reuss elder line, the award files exist, but there are thousands of pages of recommendations, correspondence to determine eligibility, award documents, and receipts for awards. These files include all awards (Ehrenkreuz and associated medals to enlisted men) and also include rejected nominations. So one would have to slowly go through each document to confirm the award. I don't have time to go back there anytime soon, and it would take about a week to go through them all. There are no separate rolls or lists for the War Merit Cross, the pinback decoration, but some might be buried in the stack of recommendations.

Regards

[christerd]

Fantastic Work, David

Christer

[Claudius]

I just spent four days in Rudolstadt and one in Greiz.

For Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and Sondershausen, I found the missing records for the awards with Eichenbruch from Sondershausen, and an index of all gemeinsam awards, with a note as to which version was actually awarded (different ciphers). I also got the rolls of the lifesaving medal and the medal for arts and sciences. There is no roll for the 1905 jubilee medal, unfortunately. Apparently, the award criteria was to whomever the Staatsministerium deemed worthy. There were recommendation lists from various agencies, but no indication which were approved. For the Anna-Luisen Orden, the wartime award for women for war aid, there are lists, but index onkly has last name and husband's title, so one would have to go through the individual recommendations to get the additional information. There were only about 300 awards, but I didn't have time to go through them. I still have to go back to Rudolstadt next week (I am in Dresden now) to go through several thousand more pages of recommendations and correspondence to get the missing information on swords recipients. There are still going to be gaps, though. Other units had to provide justification for why someone should receive the Ehrenkreuz, but IR 71 just sent lists with rank and last name.

Regards

I look forward to when your SEK4X Schwarzburg rolls will be ready for publishing.

Dave; I have a question, Are there reciepent rolls for the Schwarzburg Honor Medal (silver)?

[Ulsterman]

Bravo Dave!!!!

[Dave Danner]

I look forward to when your SEK4X Schwarzburg rolls will be ready for publishing.

Dave; I have a question, Are there reciepent rolls for the Schwarzburg Honor Medal (silver)?

I have a roll of the gold and silver Ehrenmedaillen associated with the Ehrenkreuz. It goes from 1909, when Karl Günther von Schwarzburg-Sondershausen died and Günther Victor von Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt took over both principalities. It does not include awards for war service, although I don't know if there were any war awards (officers and senior NCOs got the Ehrenkreuz mit Schwertern, but regular NCOs and enlisted men got the Medal for Merit in War). There is no roll for the Verdienstmedaille and the Anerkennungsmedaille, just piles of correspondence.

There was some correspondence during the war about the Ehrenmedaille. Apparently, the silver medal was awarded to NCOs after 12 years of good service. During the war, the commanders of IR 71 and IR 96 asked whether the medal would be awarded, and if double-counting of war years would count. I couldn't find a response, but I think the Schwarzburg officials thought it enough to get your Iron Cross and Schwarzburg Medal for Merit in War.

[Claudius]

I have a roll of the gold and silver Ehrenmedaillen associated with the Ehrenkreuz. It goes from 1909, when Karl Günther von Schwarzburg-Sondershausen died and Günther Victor von Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt took over both principalities. It does not include awards for war service, although I don't know if there were any war awards (officers and senior NCOs got the Ehrenkreuz mit Schwertern, but regular NCOs and enlisted men got the Medal for Merit in War). There is no roll for the Verdienstmedaille and the Anerkennungsmedaille, just piles of correspondence.

There was some correspondence during the war about the Ehrenmedaille. Apparently, the silver medal was awarded to NCOs after 12 years of good service. During the war, the commanders of IR 71 and IR 96 asked whether the medal would be awarded, and if double-counting of war years would count. I couldn't find a response, but I think the Schwarzburg officials thought it enough to get your Iron Cross and Schwarzburg Medal for Merit in War.

On the Schwarzburg medal bar that I have (and illustrated on a different thread) it was my contention that the gentleman was a career NCO soldier with pre-war service and wearing his old uniform for special occasions in 1934.

(l-r) EK2, SEK4X, Hindenburg, Centennial, DA15yr, Ehrenmedaille-Silver

Having the Centennial and a DA15 suggests pre-war service. Because of the placement on the medal bar and the ribbon bar, suggests that the Ehrenmedaille-Silver was a non-combatant, peacetime service as well.

During WWI I believe his exploits, or his rank deserved more than a SKM and was instead awarded the SEK4X.

[Dave Danner]

Rank, not exploits. The only recipient of the SEK4X who was not an Offizier-Stellvertreter or higher was a Bavarian Vizefeldwebel who was Batterie-Führer of his Feldartillerie-Batterie.

Also, for what it's worth, before 1918 you couldn't have double Schwarzburg Ehrenkreuz ribbons. A recipient of a wartime and/or higher class of the Ehrenkreuz had to return the lower class. So if you got swords to your peacetime SEK3, you had to return the peacetime version. If you had the Ehrenmedaille and received the Ehrenkreuz 4th Class, you had to return the medal. Also, many officers were turned down for the SEK3X because they already had the Medal for Merit in War from before they were commissioned (this happened elsewhere like Baden, too; I've seen quite a few Baden officers with only the Merit Medal on the Karl Friedrich Ribbon and no Zähringen Lion). Late in the war, Schwarzburg did approve some SEK3Xs and 4Xs to officers and senior NCOs who already had the Medal for Merit in War, but this appears to be in place of the earlier award. In Reuss, by contrast, you occasionally see combinations with the Reuss Ehrenkreuz and associated Verdienstmedaille both with swords.

After 1918, though, there was no prince to tell you what to do, so your guy could have decided to wear both ribbons and no one could tell him different.

[Claudius]

Rank, not exploits. The only recipient of the SEK4X who was not an Offizier-Stellvertreter or higher was a Bavarian Vizefeldwebel who was Batterie-Führer of his Feldartillerie-Batterie.

Also, for what it's worth, before 1918 you couldn't have double Schwarzburg Ehrenkreuz ribbons. A recipient of a wartime and/or higher class of the Ehrenkreuz had to return the lower class. So if you got swords to your peacetime SEK3, you had to return the peacetime version. If you had the Ehrenmedaille and received the Ehrenkreuz 4th Class, you had to return the medal. Also, many officers were turned down for the SEK3X because they already had the Medal for Merit in War from before they were commissioned (this happened elsewhere like Baden, too; I've seen quite a few Baden officers with only the Merit Medal on the Karl Friedrich Ribbon and no Zähringen Lion). Late in the war, Schwarzburg did approve some SEK3Xs and 4Xs to officers and senior NCOs who already had the Medal for Merit in War, but this appears to be in place of the earlier award. In Reuss, by contrast, you occasionally see combinations with the Reuss Ehrenkreuz and associated Verdienstmedaille both with swords.

After 1918, though, there was no prince to tell you what to do, so your guy could have decided to wear both ribbons and no one could tell him different.

Hallo Dave;

You certainly give a lot to think about. It is exactly these things that must be considered when I was trying to restore this medal bar and reconcile it to its ribbon bar. See the link below, but to reiterate the ribbons (l-r),

Pre-1934 Ribbon bar (5): EK2 ribbon, SKM ribbon, DA15yr or Crown Order ribbon, Centennial ribbon, SKM ribbon

Post-1934 Medal bar (6): EK2 ribbon, SKM ribbon, Hindenburg Cross ribbon, Centennial ribbon, DA15yr or Crown, SKM ribbon

The ribbon bar and medal bar are divided in time by the Hindenburg Cross (1934). In addition, the medal bar has the Centennial medal in front of the DA15 or Crown Order ribbon. However a Crown Order would always go in front of the Centennial medal, therefore the blue ribbon should be a LS medal -suggesting a DA15year.

Of note; on both the ribbon bar and the medal bar, both pre-1934 and post-1934, one of SKM ribbons stubbornly sits at the far end. It is after long service award and the Centennial medal. It was my contention that this was an unduplicated, pre-war Ehrenmedaille-Silver.

The SKM ribbon right after the EK2 was a SEK4X.

However, from what I understand from your last post;

"After 1918, though, there was no prince to tell you what to do, so your guy could have decided to wear both ribbons and no one could tell him different."

It may be possible that pre-1934 ribbon bar is post 1918 and the gentleman was wearing (against imperial regulations), both classes of the same order. A pre-war SEK (???class) in the last place and in the second position, SEK3X, or SEK2X or the SKM?

Would this suggest that the Schwarzburg gentleman was a pre-war officer?

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/53033-a-six-place-schwarzburg-medal-bar-and-five-place-ribbon-bar-set/page__hl__schwarzburg

see post #6

[Soderbaum]

Hi

I am a bit interested in that Hptm Martin Sopp from IR 56.

As he later died two days after the War ended after being badly wounded in action, is it possible to find his date and place of birth..?

Gunnar

[seeheld]

Hi

I am a bit interested in that Hptm Martin Sopp from IR 56.

As he later died two days after the War ended after being badly wounded in action, is it possible to find his date and place of birth..?

Gunnar

Hi Gunnar,

this will be difficult.

In my rolls he was an Oberleutnant and received EK2, EK1 HOH3X, EH3bX. Thats all what I have and know.

Best regards

Seeheld

[Soderbaum]

Thanks Seeheld

Sopp was apparently promoted Hptm on 180418 after he had left the Air Force. It is 98 % chance that he also received some sort of flying badge.

I just thougt it might be a better chance to find date and place of birth for these officers who were killed during the War.

Gunnar