Rolls

[webr55]

Hello Chris,

also a roll of the civil awards ???

I only know and have the E. Roth military roll for 1914-18.

Any help appreciated !!

greetings

eitze

You're right. The list should be more specific.

[Guest Rick Research]

DONE or being worked on by me from rolls in my possession that have been passed on to me from the files of my late gurus in the "Seymour Circle:"

Principality of Hohenzollern: 1914-1947 (replacements for WW1 !) for 1914-18: Ehrenkreuz all classes with X down to GOLD medals. Daniel has added Silver Medals X to "non-Prussians." DONE. There are too many Silver Medals X for 1914-18 to do and I do not have that roll. Awaiting publication.

Lippe-Detmold: 1869-1939 (that is the latest date I have seen so far for returns) for ALL awards of the Ehrenkreuz in ALL classes down through Silver Merit Cross; Leopold Order all classes down through Bronze Medals, Rose Order all classes, Kriegervereinkreuz, Merit Medals, Bertha Order, Frauenverdienstkreuz, Frauenverdienst Medal. I am still working on the Honor Cross and have not started the Merit Medals, but the others are DONE.

Mecklenburg-Strelitz: I have the jumbled, insanely disorganized and woefully incomplete roll for the Crosses for Distinction in War for the World War. Completely useless-- utter rubbish.

Saxe-Ernestine House Order:

Saxe-Coburg and Saxe-Meiningen for 1914-18 are DONE and have been added to the late Erhard Roth's Saxe-Altenburg roll already published. I have done down to Gold Medals because the silver medals rolls from the other two are not complete. Basically DONE.

Saxe-Altenburg: Daniel and I are re-doing all the other awards previously published to match our expanded additional information and cross-listing of multiple awards to the same persons.

Saxe-Coburg: Carl Eduard War Cross, Carl Eduard Medals for 1914-18 DONE

Saxe-Meiningen: War Merit Cross, combatants and noncombatants 1915-1919 DONE. I will know in a couple of months whether it will be possible to add the Women's Cross For War Effort 1915-18 to this. I do have the complete rolls for the 1915-1919 War Merit Medal, but at rougfhly 23,000 entries, that is THIRD TO LAST priority for anything I will ever do. Two massive volumes worth.

The three Ernestine Duchies will all be COMBINED for WW1, and that volume is in final editing for publication.

Saxe-Weimar: Wilhelm Ernst War Cross, Order of the White Falcon 1914-18 awards with X insofar as the rolls exist down through the Silver Merit Cross DONE. 1914-1919 General Decorations in Gold and Silver with Xs DONE. No rolls for the Bronze General Decorations X in my possession. Weimar's rolls are not great, and partially incomplete, so will be left largely as they are. Almost ready for publication.

Saxony: I have the rolls for the Order of Maria Anna. Not a priority for anybody. I think these were already done in a 1990s Roth/Autengruber volume anyway.

Schaumburg-Lippe: I have what passes as the "rolls" for their Honor Cross awards down through Silver Merit Crosses but only from 1890 on. There are some random earlier entries but basically nothing 1869-1889. Originally I had thought these would not be of much use, but with data available from the Lippe-Detmold rolls (there seems to have been a competition between the two states, so many recipients received BOTH in different grades which will make filling in the massive "blanks" in the SLH rolls data partially possible) and the Orders Almanac (the entries for which are very often defective as to which of the two states ACTUALLY gave an award, so be aware of that failing). Schaumburg's rolls list ONLY information like "Schmidt Oberlehrer XX.XX.XX" for each award.

Waldeck: I have SOME rolls, but they are so horribly written and dis-organized that they are the next to bottom priority just above the "will do after I am dead" Mecklenburg-Strelitz mess: Merit Order 1, 2, and 3 classes 1857-1896, Officer Cross grade 1912-18, and Merit Medal in Gold 1891-1917. Obviously these are fragments and there may be more odds and ends in there.

I will let Daniel address W?rttemberg when he can get on line. Suffice it to say that all rolls that exist have been found and completed or are in progress-- and there will be some amazing surprises there. One thing of extraordinary importance that Daniel is doing is noting multiple awards and returns of awards 1914-18 due to the kingdom's crazy policies of replacing awards and then re-awarding them.

POSSIBLE: I do not know why Erhard Roth stopped the Baden Z?hringen Lion rolls around June 1918. The rolls ran to the end of the war. It MAY be posssible, if the COMPLETE rolls have been saved to add to what has been published already. If the last months of the war HAVE survived (which I will know in a couple of months), then Baden will be updated and amended with the additional information Daniel and I have been adding to all our rolls. I have the roll here for the wartime Silver Military Karl Friedrich Merit Medal, but that has already been published and aside from being able to copy specific entries from the roll, nothing new or more useful.

Additional rolls may exist for the Bavarian Military Merit Crosses 1st and 2nd Class for 1914-18. Again, I should know in a couple of months. They are too heavy to ship, so I have to go and get them after the mountain passes clear.

There were many many many OTHER Rolls in the possession of the "Seymour Circle" but what has survived and been recovered is, alas, only a fraction of that. I have found cross references to things like the Anhalt awards for Arts and Sciences, but not those actual rolls. As seen from David's contacts about the Hanseatic and Reuss rolls it is very expensive to have the copies made from which transcriptions can be done, so if it is possible to do work from rolls which have already been copied, that saves THAT amount of expense. Shipping remains prohibitive, but I already have at least one volunteer potentially interested in those Meiningen medals within "hand over in person" range.

Believe me, there is NO rational return in money for the time and effort involved in getting this labour done so that it will be easily available to anyone else who is interested. Tenacity, lunacy, and not having any form ofv real life are required for this amount of work-for-no-pay.

Daniel can also advise later this year on what in person visits to many of the littel states' archives turn up, so that we will know whether completeness and usefulness on other rolls is worth getting into.

At this time I have NO information as to potential publication date for the rolls above which have been completed. Part of the problem is that we are both super perfectuonists and keep adding things (first name to a Weimar award from working through Detmold, and so on). Partly I believe it is ddue to wanting to have the maximum possible number of volumes printed simultaneously in order to keep costs down-- it is cheaper to print MORE rather than LESS, but that is beyond Daniel's and my control, since neither of us Poor Editor-Transcribers have the "up front" cash to print stacks and then sell them off one at a time. "This year" is about all I can offer before they start coming off the press. God willing!!!

[Ulsterman]

Well, I ordered microfilms of the Hansa rolls. We shall see.

Right now I am indexing the Hohenzollern book-which actually isn't that difficult:type, type, type.

[David M]

Well, I ordered microfilms of the Hansa rolls. We shall see.

Right now I am indexing the Hohenzollern book-which actually isn't that difficult:type, type, type.

Of all the Hansa rolls?

[Ulsterman]

Well,2 of the 3.

[Paul C]

I am interested to see what a page of the rolls looks like.

[David M]

POSSIBLE: I do not know why Erhard Roth stopped the Baden Z?hringen Lion rolls around June 1918. The rolls ran to the end of the war. It MAY be posssible, if the COMPLETE rolls have been saved to add to what has been published already. If the last months of the war HAVE survived (which I will know in a couple of months), then Baden will be updated and amended with the additional information Daniel and I have been adding to all our rolls. I have the roll here for the wartime Silver Military Karl Friedrich Merit Medal, but that has already been published and aside from being able to copy specific entries from the roll, nothing new or more useful.

@ Rick

I am guessing that you are just doing the BZL for WWI. As the order was erected in 1812 according to Dave Danners site, do you know if the rest of the rolls is still there as well? If not, I will contact the Baden myself to find out.

David

Edited March 24, 2007 by David M

[Red Eagle]

Preussen: Verdienstkreuz fuer Frauen und Jungfrauen - published by Hoeftmann & Schneider

[David M]

Preussen: Verdienstkreuz fuer Frauen und Jungfrauen - published by Hoeftmann & Schneider

Hi Red Eagle

do you have the full bibliographical data forthis publication?

[Red Eagle]

Titel: Das Verdienstkreuz f?r Frauen und Jungfrauen in Urkunde und Bild / von F. W. Hoeftmann.

Verfasser: Hoeftmann, F. W.

Erschienen: Berlin : Mitscher & R?stell, [ca. 1871], 54 Pages

Titel: Das Verdienst-Kreuz f?r Frauen und Jungfrauen

Verfasser: Schneider, Louis

Erschienen: Berlin: Dunker, 1872 / 12, 39 P.

[David M]

Regarding elder rolls which have already been published, would it not be an idea to just make a file in pdf-format and place it on a internetsite? This because we do know the rolls are there, it apperantly would not be to much of an effort typing them over (39 pages) and they are hard to come by these days I guess.....

Should anyone have these, I would be most happy to put them on my site, which I m currently rescheduling. I am also working on the lists of some Frankfurt awards to be put online in that fashion.

Thanks for any comments on this idea,

David M

[Guest Rick Research]

David: I would assume there are SOME earlier rolls from Baden, but not necessarily. I haven't seen ANY original Baden rolls yet, except for the World War SMKFVM, so I don't know how theirs were kept.

Lippe-Detmold only started keeping COMPLETE "full data" rolls in 1905, for instance. And there are FIVE DIFFERENT versions for the THREE Ernestines. Different formats, different data.

It is possibble that "rolls" as we understand them were NOT always made, when all that really mattered to the State was how much it COST annually to give awards out and try to recover ones when the recipients died.

[David M]

Well I just hope then that the Staatshandbuch from Baden kept lists with dates just like the Kurhessen and Grandducal Hessen did. Will contact them about that sometime in the future.

[Daniel Krause]

Hi friends,

some words from me according the rolls.

Paul is asking how it will look like. The ?Roth style? was date, name, firs name (if available in the original roll), Rank, unit (if available in the original roll).

The new ?Rick and Daniel style? will be Name, first name, rank, unit, date, remarks like later promotion to General rank or remarks to other awards, birth and death year.

A word about the time. Roughly I need some seconds to transcribe an award entry and additional 10 minutes for the added thing which are NOT in the roll. W?rttemberg will have around 23.000 name entries, so count around 3.800 hours!

W?rttemberg:

I did the MVO and Crown Order with swords, Frederick with swords, golden military merit medal, Merit cross with swords, Wilhelmscross with swords.

Big help came from Uwe Bretzendorfer and Werner Nickel.

Whats new, I noted everything according the insane W?rttemberg return policy.

And I did non-W?rttemberg awards given to Members of the W?rttemberg Army in WW1.

Ernestinian duchies:

As Rick already noted, we combine all 3 in one volume.

Altenburg ? done by the late Erhard Roth, is re-done and improved by me,

Coburg and Gotha is done ? more or less

Meiningen is done ? more or less.

In the next weeks I plan to go to all Ernestinian archives to see if anything else survived.

Weimar:

I?m expecting 2 last copies from the archives and we will be ready.

I will not speculate now for future plans like a re-done Royal Hohenzollern roll or a re-done Saxon roll before we finish the actual projects. Reu? and Schwarzburg rolls are there in the archives. I will go there next weeks to see??

Best regards

Daniel

[Red Eagle]

Regarding elder rolls which have already been published, would it not be an idea to just make a file in pdf-format and place it on a internetsite? This because we do know the rolls are there, it apperantly would not be to much of an effort typing them over (39 pages) and they are hard to come by these days I guess.....

Should anyone have these, I would be most happy to put them on my site, which I m currently rescheduling. I am also working on the lists of some Frankfurt awards to be put online in that fashion.

Thanks for any comments on this idea,

David M

You will find the recipient list for the "Verdienstkreuz fuer Frauen und Jungfrauen" on a part of my website called http://www.ordensjournal.ordensmuseum.de in May, 1, 2007.

Red

[Wild Card]

Hi David,

I just want you and the other members to be aware that an extensive research project has been underway for several years relative to the Bavarian MVO. While I can not say for sure, I expect that recipients will be covered in depth. I also can not confirm it, but I think that the MVK?s are being covered as well. At any rate, I just would not want to see a duplication of effort on this one when it might be avoidable.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[David M]

Hi David,

I just want you and the other members to be aware that an extensive research project has been underway for several years relative to the Bavarian MVO. While I can not say for sure, I expect that recipients will be covered in depth. I also can not confirm it, but I think that the MVK?s are being covered as well. At any rate, I just would not want to see a duplication of effort on this one when it might be avoidable.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Thanks wild card, that's the kind of info we need in this thread!! good to hear the MVO and MVKs are covered!!

Will make a summary of the info we have so far when I have time, which will probably not be today.

all the best

David

[WNickel]

Hi David,

Since 1994 I have made lists of

Anhalt until 1912,

Braunschweig until 1914

Baden until 1914,

Bayern fremde Orden an bayrische Offizier until 1917

Oldenburg until 1914

Preu?en Roter Adlerorden, Kronenorden with swords, 50, etc.

W?rttemberg Milit?rverdienstorden, Friedrichsorden, fremde Orden an w?rttembergische Offiziere WW1,

Kolonialverleihungen

Rangliste Preu?en, Sachsen, Bayern, W?rttemberg, Marine 1914, Reichsheer and Marine 1923 -1932

Intendanturbeamte, Post- und Telegraphenbeamte

and a few more. I have the microfilm of Hanseatenkreuz L?beck but not worked out.

Good luck

Werner

[WNickel]

...not to forget Preu?en Milit?rehrenzeichen 1867 - 1913....

[Guest Rick Research]

What do the L?beck rolls look like Werner? The same information exactly as found on Urkunden, or with more details?

[David M]

Hi David,

Since 1994 I have made lists of

Anhalt until 1912,

Braunschweig until 1914

Baden until 1914,

Bayern fremde Orden an bayrische Offizier until 1917

Oldenburg until 1914

Preu?en Roter Adlerorden, Kronenorden with swords, 50, etc.

W?rttemberg Milit?rverdienstorden, Friedrichsorden, fremde Orden an w?rttembergische Offiziere WW1,

Kolonialverleihungen

Rangliste Preu?en, Sachsen, Bayern, W?rttemberg, Marine 1914, Reichsheer and Marine 1923 -1932

Intendanturbeamte, Post- und Telegraphenbeamte

and a few more. I have the microfilm of Hanseatenkreuz L?beck but not worked out.

Good luck

Werner

Hi Werner

when you mention Anhalt until 1912, do you mean all Anhalt from the beginning (say 1834 for the Bear-order)?

For Oldenburg, I know the guy from the oldenburg orders site is doing a list as well, did you cooperate with him?

Did you do every class for the Red Eagle Order? from when?

hope to hear from you again

David

[Bernd D]

The Luebeck rolls are done for about 30 percent. The rest will be done but I do not know when. Just a mattter of time and other projects.

The Bavarian MVO/MVK is done all civilian awards 1866 until the end. War decorations completely 1866 - 1914. Also all war decorations MVO third class upwards until the end.

Fourth class with crown and swords all Bavarians. MVK 1. Cl with swords partly, crown and swords all. I will also do 2. class with crowne and swords. I will not do MVO 4x 1914-1918 (27.000), MVK 2x (17.000) and not the 3. class (3x - 290.000, 3crx 60.000)

It will be published together with a book about the MVO. No time frame.

I am also working on the Colonial medal.

[David M]

1. Anhalt

a.-1912 ? what, since when  Werner Nickel

2. Baden

a.KFO/BZL: published, but incomplete

-1914, what, since when  Werner Nickel

3. Bayern

a.MMJO: published

b.MVO/MVK: published, but incomplete

foreign awards to Bavarian officers -1917  Werner Nickel

The Bavarian MVO/MVK is done

all civilian awards 1866 until the end.

War decorations completely 1866 - 1914.

Also all war decorations MVO third class upwards until the end.

Fourth class with crown and swords all Bavarians.

MVK 1. Cl with swords partly,

crown and swords all.

4. Braunschweig:

a.BrH/BrEAK: apparently not in archive

-1914, what, since when  Werner Nickel

5. Bremen

a.Hanseatenkreuz: exist in archive, not yet published

6. Hamburg

a.Hanseatenkreuz: exist in archive, not yet published

7. Hessen-Darmstadt

a.HPO/HT: destroyed in the war?

8. Hessen (Kurf?rstentum):

a.House Order of the Golden Lion --> David M

b.Order of William --> David M

9. Hohenzollern

a.Ehrenkreuz all classes, with X, gold medals, done

Silver medals x to non Prussians, done

10. Lippe-Detmold

a.LDH: 1869-1939 down to silver merit cross: all grades are done

Leopold order down to Bronze medals: done

Rose order all classes: done

Kriegervereinkreuz: done

Merit medals, to be done

Bertha Order: done

Frauenverdienstkreuz: done

Frauenverdienstmedals, done

Silver Civil Merit Medal on Ribbon aka "Paulinen Medal," 1817-1918: done

11. L?beck

a.Hanseatenkreuz: exist in archive, not yet published, though 30% done  Bernd D.

12. Mecklenburg-Schwerin

a.exist in archive, not yet published

13. Mecklenburg-Strelitz

a.found, but too chaotic to be useful, and fragmentary rolls far from complete

14. Oldenburg

a.-1914, what, since when  Werner Nickel

15. Preu?en

a.PLM/HHOX: published

Verdienstkreuz f?r Frauen und Jungfrauen will be published online in may 2007

Milit?rehrenzeich 1867-1913  Werner Nickel

16. Reu? ?.L. und j.L.

a.exist in archive, not yet published

17. Sachsen

a.SH/SV: published

b.SA: published, but rolls not complete

Maria Anna no priority, Rick R. has the rolls

18. Sachsen-Altenburg

a.HSH: Altenburg published published, being redone to match other two

19. Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha

a.HSH: being published

b.Carl Eduard War Cross: being published

c.Carl Eduard Medals: being published

20. Sachsen-Meiningen

a.HSH: being published, but incomplete

b.War Merit Cross: being published

21. Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach

a.WF: being published, but incomplete

b.Wilhelm Ernst War Cros: being published

c. General Decorations in Gold & Silver 1914-1919 with Xs: being published

22. Schaumburg-Lippe

a.Ehrenkreuz down to silver merit cross from 1890 onwards, will be done

23. Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt und Schwarzburg-Sondershausen

a.exist in archive, not yet published

24. Waldeck

a.Merit Cross 1914-18: published

The rest is a real mess, though rolls exist for: Merit Order 1 2 3 1857-1896

Officers grade 1912-1918

Merit Medal Gold 1891-1917

25. W?rttemberg

a.WKO/MVO/WF: being published

26. Austria

a.Iron Crown: ?

b.?MK: ?

[WNickel]

Hi David,

I have not the original rolls from Anhalt, Baden, Braunschweig, Oldenburg. Only Staatshandb?cher, for example Anhalt since 1872.

I have all classes from the prussian red eagle and the crown order with "addons" - that means swords, 50, etc. but not with "Schleife" or "Eichenlaub". There are twenty thousand of each order in all classes.

At last I have made a list of the bavarian MVK at the "Badn f?r Kriegsverdienste" - all classes - and the MVK 1. class for war-merit. Here I have only the Milit?rverordnungsblatt and not the original rolls.

But I think there are 75 - 90 %.

Best regards

Werner

[webr55]

Hi David,

I have not the original rolls from Anhalt, Baden, Braunschweig, Oldenburg. Only Staatshandb?cher, for example Anhalt since 1872.

I have all classes from the prussian red eagle and the crown order with "addons" - that means swords, 50, etc. but not with "Schleife" or "Eichenlaub". There are twenty thousand of each order in all classes.

At last I have made a list of the bavarian MVK at the "Badn f?r Kriegsverdienste" - all classes - and the MVK 1. class for war-merit. Here I have only the Milit?rverordnungsblatt and not the original rolls.

But I think there are 75 - 90 %.

Best regards

Werner

Hello Werner,

have you got award numbers for the Beamtenband MVK, especially with crown?

Thanks

Chris