EK 1870 1870 EKI

[Troy Tempest]

Hi Gentlemen! I saw this on ebay, from a dealer with good reviews, what do you think? Started at $800AU but no bids.

]

Thanks again gents!

[Mike K]

Hi Troy,

Pure fake cr*p. ANY EK1 - 1813, 1870, 1914 or 1939 EK1 with this attempted "Deschler & Sohn" stamped marking is a fake. These things are currently flooding the market.

Regards

Mike

Edited September 18, 2007 by Mike K

[dond]

It is a fake POS just like most of his feedback.

[Troy Tempest]

Okay Mike and dond, thanks for that! I actually posted this for a new collector. I am currently buying Hindenburg Crosses, I have 18 now, with 9 more on the way. While I have learned not to go crazy at ebay auctions (took a while!), I now don't bid more than 10 euros or $15US for Hindenburg Crosses, I've actually bought plenty for less than that, got one for $6US! I put a bid on one for $18AU, and missed it. I couldn't believe that it went for, get this, $106AU! That has got to be a world record for a Hindenburg Cross! Now, as you helpful blokes know, I'm certainly no expert, but I did know that this was crazy, and felt the urge to contact the winner and tell him not to pay it.

I explained what I buy, and my limited knowledge and experience, and how much Hindenburg Crosses go for, and advised him to just not pay it. As he only has a history of 8 purchases on ebay, even if he got a bad feedback, he could just start a new account, it's not like he's losing hundreds of feedbacks if he just ditched the current account he has. I have bought one item from the seller of this 1870 EKI, a Kyfh?sserbund medal, the first one I ever bought. I now have three, but paid way too much for the one I got from this seller. The photo showed some ribbon, and I assumed it would have a full ribbon, but it has about 1" either side of the ribbon ring. Grrrr! I have since bought two more from dealers, and got some ribbon from another dealer, and combined, the two with ribbon cost me less than the one with the tiny amount of ribbon.

The winner of the Hindenburg Cross thanked me for my advice and asked about collecting militaria. Naturally I directed him here! (and the GCA site), and gave him the addresses of some dealers I have had good service from, and told him to join up here and to feel free to ask the GMIC brains trust for help. He then sent me the message about the 1870 EKI, so not knowing anything (yet) about EKs, I posted the photos here for him. He is keen to get into collecting militaria, and I'm sure he will make a fine member of GMIC, I shall pass on the kind advice you have provided!

When I get the photos of all my collection, I shall be glad to repost them all here, especially as many of you have helped me correctly name the items I've bought! Thanks again!

[gregM]

Has anyone actually seen a Deschler & Sohn marked Imperial Ek that IS good ?

I have not.

[Troy Tempest]

Hi Greg! So what is the give away with this one? Is it that Deschler and Sohn didn't make any 1870 EKIs or is that partial stamping of the makers mark the give away or what?

[Biro]

Troy

Deschler were not makers of the 1870 EK1. The cross you posted is a VERY well known fake and should be avoided at all costs.

Wagner, Godet and Ludwig Lauer you can trust as makers - but there are (of course) faked Godet and Wagner maker marks. Post them here and you'll get the feedback you need.

On the plus side however, you have probably the most rock and roll sounding name on the forum.

[Troy Tempest]

Thanks Biro! I was also looking at some more Hindenburg Crosses today on ebay, and saw a 1813 Iron Cross, have you seen it? He claims it is in Gordon Williamson's book, but it doesn't have a date or crown on the front, it's just a plain Iron Cross. He says it had to be sown onto a uniform, it doesn't have a pinback. Does that sound right? I certainly can't afford anything like that at the moment, but I was intrigued by this 1813 EK. I am the first to admit I don't know much about EKs, but I was always under the impression they had a date on them. Here are the pictures:

[Alex K]

Hi Troy, 1813 Ist class crosses did have a plain centre, the original 1813 iron crosses, particularly the 2nd class were actually intended to be worn with the plain side showing with the reverse having the crown oakleaves and date. It was only after time when recipients started to wear them with the plain side as the reverse that it was, I believe officially sanctioned. It would therefore be natural for the Ist class to have a plain "Front". As to the cross posted, many did have loops for sewing onto the uniform. I can't vouch for it's authenticity but the rims look to be from a later period.

regards

Alex

[Troy Tempest]

Thanks yet again Alex!

[Troy Tempest]

I sent a message to the guy selling the "Deschler & Sohn" 1870 EK, saying I was interested, but that I'd done a bit of research, and asked him about whether or not Deschler & Sohn actually made 1870 EK's, and here is the reply he gave me:

Hi,

The maker was in fact Resch & Sohn, rather than Deschler & Sohn as

you mentioned. Hope this helps you out.

Warren

Is this a newly discovered maker?

[Alex K]

Another previously unknown maker we all live and learn I'll have to keep my eyes open for any other things made by them, well spotted

regards

Alex

Edited September 19, 2007 by Alex K

[joe campbell]

the above 1813 is NOT an original or a later "reissue".

it is most probably made with 1914 parts, and is designed

to dupe someone.

RESCH und sohn is not a name i've ever heard in

reference to any known EK manufacturer.

there was, in fact, "legislation" permitting the wearing

of the EK plain side out.

DON"T spend any money on medals until you are comfortable

with identifying what you are looking at..

fortunately, there are lots of texts, threads here, and other

resources where you can start to get accustomed to

what is real.

joe

[ekhunter]

the above 1813 is NOT an original or a later "reissue".

it is most probably made with 1914 parts, and is designed

to dupe someone.

RESCH und sohn is not a name i've ever heard in

reference to any known EK manufacturer.

there was, in fact, "legislation" permitting the wearing

of the EK plain side out.

DON"T spend any money on medals until you are comfortable

with identifying what you are looking at..

fortunately, there are lots of texts, threads here, and other

resources where you can start to get accustomed to

what is real.

joe

Joe's right. Save your money for the right one.

RESCH und sohn, now that is a good one!

[Troy Tempest]

Hi again! I'm stringing this guy on to see where this leads! Here is my reply to his statement about Resch & Sohn being the maker of his 1870 EK:

Troy Tempest to spitfire_ace_68show details 07:03 (0 minutes ago)

Hi Warren, thanks for your reply! I am very interested in your 1870 EK, but $800 is a lot of money for me, so I need to be sure of what I'm getting you understand! I've been caught out before buying eastern European copies in the past, so I am trying to learn as much about these old EKs as I can. I was told that Deschler & Sohn never made an 1870 EK, and that the makers mark on the back of yours could have been a bad one from a known source of copies. I was relieved to find out that it was not Deschler & Sohn, but in fact Resch & Sohn, so that's good to know!

As I said, I don't know as much about medals as you do, so I appreciate your knowledge about such things! I have, however, been unable to find anything on this maker, I can find no mention of Resch & Sohn in any articles on the internet about makers of German awards. Would you be able to tell me something about Resch & Sohn please? As I said, I'd be happy to pay $800 for this, as long as I am satisfied that it is genuine! Thanks again Spitfire Ace 68!

Troy

Stay tuned.....

[Troy Tempest]

Okay, I have the reply from the seller of the Resch & Sohn 1870 EK, quite lengthy but unfortunately no imformation on the maker 'Resch & Sohn' as I requested. Better open those cheque books up gentlemen, this medal is apparently worth a looooooooot of money!

spitfire_ace_68@westnet.com.au to meshow details 21 Sep (1 day ago) <script>Hi Troy,

I picked this cross up from a French militaria seller in France who

runs a website called medaille-medailles. He has some excellent stuff

listed there, and is quite the expert.

I will be lsiting this cross around late November this year again, as

I have had a lot of interest in it. Seems the time difference when

the auction ended meant that everyone was either asleep or having

dinner when it ended here Saturday morning!

I thought this way would be fairer on all the people who've emailed

me, even a chap in Japan who wanted it for $1100!

I hope this fair outcome is palatable for everyone.

As I mentioned in the listing, there is one Australian seller who was

knocking off these EK1 1870 copies here a few years ago. His user

name on ebay was a1originals. After I exposed him as a copy and

reproduction fraud, he changed his name to elitemilitaria. If you

check out his items even today, they are just cheap repros. The guy

hardly sells a thing that is original, it's either a fake from Poland

(1957 knights crosses) or a repro from the states (US Purple Heart).

I think that you have even realised that all the items in my lsitings

and auctions is, as we'd say in Australia, 'Ridgy didge' - correct.

Thanks,

Warren

I must say though, I am somewhat alarmed at his statements about elitemilitaria. I have bought a few things from him, because I like the fixed prices, but according to spitfire ace 68, I've just bought fakes and repros! I did buy one of the boxed Purple Hearts, would that be true that mine is an American repro does anyone think? Some people have told me that his prices are a bit high, and another GMIC member thought his medal bars were either too expensive or possibley put together recently, but nobody has said his stuff is fake or repro. That does have me a tad worried now. Still, I'd better start saving hard to beat the Japanese collector who was offering $1100AU for the Resch & Sohn 1870 EK!

[hunyadi]

Troy - its just all smoke and mirrors to get you to say 'Wait - I'll pay $1200 for this EK'....nothing more. If you have the cash, avoid the Ebay and get one from a reputable dealer. It looks like you have been doing well with the HK's on Ebay, and that is a good place to get stuff - dont get me wrong. But finding an original 1870 EK on Ebay is a long wait and chances are that 200 other chaps out there will also be bidding on the same one, potentaily driving up the price beyond what it is realy worth. Best of luck Troy and as you know - keep asking the questions

[Tom Y]

I bought a 1914 EK from Warren a while back and was happy with it, but noticed a fake he had on offer which he withdrew after I told him about it. I think he's basically honest but too gullible. As far as Elitemilitaria goes we've had a few good laughs over some of his offerings, such as this and this

Edited September 22, 2007 by Tom Y

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Gents:

The photo of the reverse of the modern forgery 1870 EKI posted at the top of this article was stamped "DESCHLER..." by the forgers, but solder has covered portions of the stamping making it look like "RESCH".

Note that Resch of Vienna, Austria was a genuine maker of Orders and decorations at one time. There mark however was "Gebr. Resch" (for Gebr?der Resch/Resch Brothers).

This EK is a forgery in any guise, no matter what it is stamped (ligible or not!).

The seller started it at AU$800, but wouldn't take AU$1,100 for it later??? There were not bids due to poor auction timing???Yes, this makes perfect sense! (NOT!). No one bid on this because it is a modern FORGERY, and I hate to surmise that anyone may not tell the truth, but I don't think the "fellow in Japan" exists!

Caveat Emptor!

"SPM"

[Tom Y]

Hello Gents:

The photo of the reverse of the modern forgery 1870 EKI posted at the top of this article was stamped "DESCHLER..." by the forgers, but solder has covered portions of the stamping making it look like "RESCH".

Note that Resch of Vienna, Austria was a genuine maker of Orders and decorations at one time. There mark however was "Gebr. Resch" (for Gebr?der Resch/Resch Brothers).

This EK is a forgery in any guise, no matter what it is stamped (ligible or not!).

The seller started it at AU$800, but wouldn't take AU$1,100 for it later??? There were not bids due to poor auction timing???Yes, this makes perfect sense! (NOT!). No one bid on this because it is a modern FORGERY, and I hate to surmise that anyone may not tell the truth, but I don't think the "fellow in Japan" exists!

Caveat Emptor!

"SPM"

If you'll look again there isn't enough space between the "?esc" and the "sohn" for "hler &". Could be the reason for the blob of solder. I think "retch & shun" would be more appropriate

[Steve campbell]

I think what should be kept in mind here is the rarity of 1813 and even 1870 Iron Crosses. There just weren't that many made, especially the first class versions and and 1813s in general. Although nothing is impossible, the chances of real versions showing up on ebay are not great. This area is a minefield, especially fore someone who isn't well versed in the subject. I would suggest someone start with the 1914 series of EKs and go from there. They are not as faked and far more affordable, but you still have to do your homework.

[Troy Tempest]

Hi Hunyadi, I have no plans whatsoever to buy the Resch & Sohn EK! I don't have plans to spend $800 on anything at the moment! If I did, I would most certainly check in here first! And yes Hunyadi, my Hindenburg Cross collection grows! As there were so many million made, I'm pretty sure they are not worthy of being faked, is that fair enough? I'm going to try to get one of each maker of all three classes of the HK.

[hunyadi]

Hi Troy -

I know what you mean - as far as I know the only 'forgeries' of the HK's are the ones with swords being lopped off and passed off as non-combatants or the widows - however the wreath on these are different. I hope you can make headway on getting all the makers of the HK - do you have a list? If so - it may be a good idea to post it on a new thread and that way we could add our little tidbits to make a database. I too like the HK - its still affordable...

[Troy Tempest]

I don't know where to source a list of all the makers of the HK, I'm already up to 18. I will post all my medals once they are photographed properly. I know I keep saying this, but it is going to happen!

[Naxos]

Apparently the 1870 IC has as a Pr?sidialkanzlei number as well

here is the link to the old auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-German-Iron-Cr...5QQcmdZViewItem

Hardy