13 positions bar needs help for ID

[Komtur]

Hallo Forumites,

I was asked by another collector to show this bar here in the GMIC. He is a serious collector and author of order articles and books. The bar was shown twice without success in the German forum SDA.

By any reason he believes, it could be a W?rttemberg Oberstabsarzt.

Btw. the only not German decoration is a Belgium Order of the Crown knight cross.

With regards, Komtur.

[saschaw]

Great bar, I can say this once more. Interresting to see the three (!!!) mistakes in mounting: Red Eagle Order should be in front of Crown Order, Red Cross medal IInd class outranks IIIrd class and the Belgium order should be the last one, not the Oldenburger. But - still no idea for a name, sorry.

[Paul R]

I can only echo everyone else's sentiments... WOW!

This has to be one of the world's better Noncombatant bars!

[Guest Rick Research]

I suppose the Belgian and Oldenburg Orders from before the war would be the key here, since everything else is either normal or not gazetted in the Personal Nachrichten.

I don't see anything that necessarily suggests medical as opposed to general civil servant/bureaucrat/government functionary here. Lack of ANY military long service award makes me think civil servant rather than dR or dL doctor-- though there were large numbers of senior ranking reserve doctors who never got any long service awards. But if THAT were the case, he'd leap out from the pages of the 1914 Rank List. I would exclude this being a military Beamter's for the same reason--not leaping out of the 1914 pages.

Unfortunately the most recent W?rttemberg Hof und Staat Handbuch I have is from 1909. This needs a 1913/14 issue to run through EVERYBODY for the pre-war combination of awards.

If you have a NAME, it is possible to look around to see if anything can be matched to that, but from anonymous awards, I don't turn anything up. ONE OK2 on red ribbon was all that was listed in the PN, and Ludwigs and Baden Kriegsverdiensts are equally under-listed, while Prussian Red Cross Medals are hopeless.

So far the focus of my group identification effoirts has been on the Prussian army and the imperial navy. This requires a "W?rttemberg data base" that has not been created yet.

[Komtur]

As Rick recommended I searched the W?rttemberg Hof- und Staatshandbuch 1914:

this Theodor Wanner is not bad? He got the Belgian, the Oldenburg and the W?rttemberg one and Montenegro and Sweden are neck orders!

[Guest Rick Research]

YOU FOUND HIM!!!!

Here is his 1935 "Wer Ist's?" entry:

Unfortunately no listing of his decorations, but I can't imagine there were TWO W?rttemberg civilians with that Belgian/Oldenburg pair.

He does not show up, as a civilian, in the military rolls.

According to the 1917 Hof kalendar, he had been Swedish consul in Stuttgart since 1910.

[Ulsterman]

Look in the Lindenmusee in Stuttgart-there you will find his portrait and his complete (and impressive) biography.

Note he married an American and was friends with the Ras, Haile Selassie.

[Paul C]

It is amazing what can be found when you have the correct reference tools i.e. ranklists, DOA 1908/09, staate and hof books. Without these in your research library you are lost.

[Komtur]

Thanks to all of you, gentleman.

I really hope we are right, but there are some points I want to discuss:

1.) Shame on me, I stopped screening the W?rttemberg Staatshandbuch 1914, when I found Wanner, so I have to complete the work next time to be shure.

2.) Shouldn?t it be a civilian "Frackspange" then this kind of a bar, normally worn by officers?

3.) Is there any chance to find Wanner in a list of some of the other decorations?

4.) Are there any other sources, then the W?rttemberg Staatshandbuch and the Wer ist?s to search for Wanner?

5.) No Prussian decoration in 1914 and then 5 in the next 4 years - isn?t that to much?

With regards, Komtur.

Edited September 21, 2007 by Komtur

[Dave Danner]

Here is Wanner's entry in the 1918 Handbook for the German Reich. It doesn't add much except some positions, as his awards aren't listed. These positions might have put him in line for some of the Prussian awards, though.

[Motorhead]

Try the Google B?chersuche-it seems to be that you can find something about him!

Micha

http://books.google.de/books?q=Theodor+Wan...%BCchern+suchen

[Daniel Krause]

Hi friends,

I do not want to spoil the evening - SURE IT IS HIM?????

NO Prussian Award in 1914 listed, but the bar shows a RAO4, KO3, EK2, 2 red cross medals, war aid cross....

I do not worry for EK and war aid, I do not worry for both red cross medals but why the hell...... beside of this FOUR decorations from Prussia he should have gotten TWO MORE ORDERS in the middle of the war? No, I cannot believe that some civilian like him got SIX awards from Prussia in 1914-1918. And his Homeland gave him nothing else than the poor Charlotte cross? No Wilhelms Cross, no Olga Order?

I have the Crown Order list for WW1 and will check tomorrow if he is in.

I believe we have to look for somebody who has at least one of the Prussian Orders already in 1914, most likely also a W?rttemberg Crown Order pinback grade.

Best regards

Daniel

[Komtur]

...No, I cannot believe that some civilian like him got SIX awards from Prussia in 1914-1918...

Exactly that was my doubt too, I only forgot to count the EK2 for Prussia

[CRBeery]

This was named at one point according to the owner that had it before the auction. I had a chance to buy this bar but was short of funds due to other purchases out of the collection. The owner had forgotten the name but claimed that it was written down some where. I am afraid that is all gone now. Great bar!!

[Daniel Krause]

Hi,

just checked the KO list for 1913-1918. NO KO3 to Wanner....

I do not think this bar was ID?d before. It used to be in ony Colson?s collection, un-ID?d, and I think it went without a name to Thies.

Best regards

Daniel

[nesredep]

Hi

Very interesting.

Regards

Nesredep

[Paul C]

I thought the bar looked familiar. Yes it was in the Colson collection and sold through Thies. According to Tony Colson, George Seymour ID the owner but Tony lost the information.

[Guest Rick Research]

Frackspangen were worn on tuxedos or the REALLY old fashioned knee-length frock coats. A civilian could have worn any style he wanted, including one this mounting style.

The Prussian Red Cross 3 is the circa 1915 type, still round but already in war metal alloy, suggesting a circa 1920 2nd Class.

Civilians who were NOT members of the civil service simply do not appear anywhere except the pre-war vanity press Orders Almanacs and in any award roll where we can find them, randomly.

This is going to be case where unless the "red-blue" OK2, Bavarian Ludwig Cross and Baden War Effort Cross rolls can be found, transcribed, and his name verified-- even assuming that there ARE such rolls-- all that remains DISTINCTIVE here is the very peculiar pairing of the Belgian and Oldenburg House Orders.

There ISN'T anybody military with the pre-war combination in 1914. MAYBE this is an old retiree, who will appear in 1907... or 1903... or 1886...

but that again involves searching THOUSANDS of pages with no expectation of CATCHING a suspect except by pure chance.

It's a civilian combination, and at this stage of our research, we have been focussing ONLY on military recipients of awards.

[Stijn David]

Hello,

I have checked the Crownorders awarded up towards 1908 (E.I.C. = Congo freestate periode) and there is no Wanner mentioned. And note that the date 1908 is very important. The crownorder as shown did become a belgian order from that year on. Before it was a Order of the Congo Freestate (and not Belgian as such !!!)

What does this mean;

1) iff the medalbar is indeed from the named person he did get his Crownorder between 1908 and 1914.

2) the medalbar is not from Wanner and then we have once again multiple German subjects who did get a E.I.C. Crownorder.

Cordial greetings,

[Kapitular]

Hello and thank you to all of you. I think, this will be a last comment to my bar. Indeed, it is my bar. Komtur was so kind, to present it here in the forum at a time, I was not a member of the club.

We have to notice, that Konsul Wanner definitively was not the person we are looking for. I think, the key will be found in the list of the belgian Order of the Crown between 1908 and 1914. In this time will be some german persons, who got it and one of them will be the owner of the bar. When we have for example about 20 names it will not be too difficult, to find him. So I am still in good hope!!

Kapitular

Hello,

I have checked the Crownorders awarded up towards 1908 (E.I.C. = Congo freestate periode) and there is no Wanner mentioned. And note that the date 1908 is very important. The crownorder as shown did become a belgian order from that year on. Before it was a Order of the Congo Freestate (and not Belgian as such !!!)

What does this mean;

1) iff the medalbar is indeed from the named person he did get his Crownorder between 1908 and 1914.

2) the medalbar is not from Wanner and then we have once again multiple German subjects who did get a E.I.C. Crownorder.

Cordial greetings,

[Guest Rick Research]

We are glad you joined us!

If you have a list of W?rttemberg recipients of this grade of the Oldenburg House Order who were NOT regular army or navy officers (we can exclude all of them immediately) it may be possible to work backwards and locate the remaining W?rttembergers from Hof und Staat Handb?cher. I am fairly certain this bar will turn out to have been a civilian rather than anyone military.

From the DIM distant memories I have of this bar, George Seymour DID succeed in finding the wearer. he was a "Dr.-of-something" but a government type, if I remember. Dr.jur.? Dr.phil.? Not a Dr.med.

It will be easier to look for specific names than go through thousands of brittle brown pages.