What have you in the drawer that's rare?

[Daniel Murphy]

If this is the wrong place to do this I apologize and if it is not gold I will remove the posts. Here are both of mine side by side.

[Claudio]

Hi Stogie,

That's a Sachsen-Weimar Dienstauszeichnung 2. Klasse f?r XII Jahre (Ausgabe 1913-1918, Chiffre "WE").

Ciao,

Claudio

[medalnet]

Stogieman,

I purchased this piece as bronze gilt. Upon seeing your gold one with the dark enamel, I had one with similar enamel. When I conpared the two, it is also lighter than my Friedlander 938 piece. I do not have a scale to weigh it, other than that is there any way to verify whether it is Gold or not. Here are some pics Obverse,

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I knew it is bronze gilt....

Let me tell, you that it is not that easy to determine weather something is bronze gilt or gold just by looking at it. Unfortunately some states went from silver gilt to bronze gilt during the end of WWI. For example the Ernestine house order knight badges with swords are almost always bronze gilt. Yes, I know they always feature red and yellow gold, but are still bronze gilt.

So are those pictured here. Very untypical swords and looking at the crown I can see some oxidation that is not typical for gold.

there you go....

It is still a very nice piece stogieman.

[medalnet]

By the way, the bronze gilt ones are hollow made as well as their golden brothers and sisters. Especially Ernestine House order or the silver gilt MVOs

[Daniel Murphy]

This pic may tell you more than the others. Notice the sword on the right of my maybe gold one. Is this what Andreas was talking about with the swords being two piece.? I have a jeweler that I used to work for, I can get him to weigh it. I will let you know.

[medalnet]

...and here is a GOLD one, scratch mark "W":

[medalnet]

...and reverse

[Daniel Murphy]

So Andreas, are you saying that his and mine are both bronze gilt? Well, it was a nice dream while it lasted. Sorry Stogie. I don't doubt you Andreas, but I can't figure out why they would make hollow bronze. All of the work that must entail just to save some bronze? The Germans are an unusual people, in a good way though.

Dan Murphy

Edited October 28, 2005 by Daniel Murphy

[medalnet]

So Andreas, are you saying that his and mine are both bronze gilt? Well, it was a nice dream while it lasted. Sorry Stogie. I don't doubt you Andreas, but I can't figure out why they would make hollow bronze. All of the work that must entail just to save some bronze? The Germans are an unusual people, in a good way though.

Dan Murphy

It comes down to the tooling. Tooling for golden order decoration lasts a lot longer due to the soft material. Since they had those, they would use them to coin/stamp the bronze gilt pieces. There are even commander crosses of the Ernestine house order made from gilt bronze in a hollow fashion.

This explains the similar light weight.

By the way, here is the big brother of the golden knight badge:

[medalnet]

...and the reverse:

[Stogieman]

I can't speak for Dan's, but mine was gold and there's no disputing that!

[medalnet]

I can't speak for Dan's, but mine was gold and there's no disputing that!

Did you test yours? There some oxidations that look rather not typical for a golden piece. gold does oxidizes, yet in different colors. I marked those places in your picture...

Edited October 28, 2005 by medalnet

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I have to agree that gold simply is not in the slightest tarnished in appearance. The gilted pieces almost always have some trace of wear that lends itself to that non-gold appearance.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Dan, yours for sure is not gold.

[Stogieman]

Yes, it was tested. It was weighed. and it was gold. You're absolutely discounted the effect of the resin used to assmble crosses that as you know, leaks out from time to time. This piece was gold.

[medalnet]

Yes, it was tested. It was weighed. and it was gold. You're absolutely discounted the effect of the resin used to assmble crosses that as you know, leaks out from time to time. This piece was gold.

Stogieman,

The tooling was never made for bronze gilt pieces. They used the tooling formerly used for golden pieces to make the cheap end of the WWI timeframe bronze gilt order decorations.

Ergo: There are golden pieces from the same tooling.

[Stogieman]

Look, the argument is moot. The piece is long gone. I've owned 2 in gold, one in bronze gilt. Countless in silver gilt from 4 or 5 makers. This one was gold. Like it or not. Whether it conforms or not to your perception of a gold cross. There you have it. I'm quite sure the same tools were used, but we're arguing about a piece that was sold 4 years ago for well in excess of $2500 to a buyer who didn't take my word for it and had the piece assayed at a jeweler. The jeweler said it was gold. I said it was gold. And our (one of) mutual acquaintence in Germany said it was gold. not quite sure what else can be said about it.

[Daniel Murphy]

I will take mine to the jeweler tommorow. If it is bronze gilt, no harm, since that is what I bought it as. There was definitely more than one maker of these, just because stogies gold one does not match a wagner marked (issued) piece, does not mean it is not gold. If mine is not gold, it does not have any effect on stogies piece since it may be made from the same dies but just in bronze. A man who wanted a second piece in 1915-1916 could go to a jeweler and as long as they had a supply of gold and the dies they would make it. Personally, If he says it was gold, that is good enough for me. I will let you know for sure one way or the other.

Dan Murphy

[Eric K.]

I'm not sure if this is really all that rare and it surely doesnt compare to the other items but I think it's a beauty

Eric

Edited October 29, 2005 by Eric K.

[Stogieman]

Hi Eric, rarity is in the eye of the beholder..............

I like your tally!!

[David Gregory]

Although the HHOX is not rare, this version is probably one of the less common. When stocks started to be used up some time in 1916 (so I am told), the remaining stock of awards without swords were converted to the version with swords by having swords attached by rivets.

[attachmentid=14616]

[attachmentid=14617]

[David Gregory]

Detail of the maker's stamp and content:

[attachmentid=14618]

Detail of the rivet:

[attachmentid=14619]

Has anyone else got one to compare?

/David

[medalnet]

Those pieces always remind me of how sturdy enamel really is. Imagine the hammer coming down to fix those rivets...

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Those pieces always remind me of how sturdy enamel really is. Imagine the hammer coming down to fix those rivets...

Or a very careful application of pressure.

[Stogieman]

I have always accepted this variation as war-time production without ever hearing that story. The story makes sense, it's very difficult to find a Hohenzollern without swords. I've only seen a few and only owned one. Another little obscurity to keep an eye out for!