Soviet I'm speechless... and for me that's saying alot!

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Genuine-Russian-Medal-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Dan :cheers:

Edited July 27, 2008 by Hauptman

[Tisha]

Idiots spoil good Order :banger:

Edited July 27, 2008 by tisha

[Ed_Haynes]

Don't discount the possibility that this was done by the recipient, either in an over-ambitious compliance with the orders to convert breast-worn awards to ribbons or by a foreign recipient in a place where drilling all those holes in your uniform, was not the norm.

Since it is on e$cam, though, our worst fears may always be the most likely scenario.

[JimZ]

Considering that there was so much happening....

.... four sided suspensions converted to screwbacks, (eg Nevsky, OGPW etc)

.... four sided suspensions converted to five sided suspensions, (eg Bravery, Military merits and XX anniversary RKKA)

.... screwbacks converted to five sided suspensions, (eg ORB and OL)

.... and the subsequent issue of several other new medals

.... with a population of so many (many) millions, someone was probably bound to fudge it up.... and change one of the only medals that remained unchanged!!!

Of course as mentioned above, this can also be a fake case of.... WOW - look at this RARE conversion. You gotta have it ....

BUT I also would NOT rule out the fact that this could have been veteran mounted.

Either way, its not worth as much with a missing arm, missing screwpost, soldered ring, damaged(?) medallion and damaged hammer and sickle!

BUT with research and given its low serial number, it could tell a VERY interesting story!

Regards

Jim

[Lapa]

...Either way, its not worth as much with a missing arm, missing screwpost, soldered ring, damaged(?) medallion and damaged hammer and sickle!...

Jim,

Be careful, with "forum not politically correct" statements like this you are bound to get in trouble. Commercial worth should not be/is not the crux of the matter, it is all about History

Marc

[paddywhack]

iv red banner in the 90 xxx range that converted to screwback and then back to the correct way again!!!

[Ed_Haynes]

iv red banner in the 90 xxx range that converted to screwback and then back to the correct way again!!!

I have always assumed that all those "reconversions" of originally screwbackled items (not what you allude to, I know) were reconversions by "helpful" dealers and coillectors who smelled more profit by doing so. Why in the world would have a veteran have converted his awards back to an obsolete style?

Another victory of greed over history?

[paddywhack]

could be his other awards were all screw back and he was just neat and bored at the same time!! :beer:

[Paul R]

It looks like a really interesting piece to me, if it was done by the veteran!

[Lapa]

It looks like a really interesting piece to me, if it was done by the veteran!

If ...

Marc

[Guest Rick Research]

Actually, this "suspension Red Star" LOOKS quite nice. It is what the Orders of Glory SHOULD have looked like!

Look at the photo of the triple Red Banner recipient ? on page 72 of McDaniel & Schmitt:

Who among us would EVER buy these, even with an Orders Book "matching" the numbers... WITHOUT "Saint Thomas proof?"

:speechless:

[JimZ]

Jim,

Be careful, with "forum not politically correct" statements like this you are bound to get in trouble. Commercial worth should not be/is not the crux of the matter, it is all about History

Marc

Marc - First of all please be very careful not to quote me out of context. When I make a statement I do not appreciate that two words are twisted out of perspective, especially on certain subjects. I have advocated against speculation in Soviet ODMs ever since, having some serious arguments with some members who are obsessed with prices and values - so I particulary do not appreciate your comment, as this throws my words in the wrong light. A "BUT" in caps shows where the crux of my comment was, which means you missed the jist. I guess this adds some clarity to what I said and what you unintentionally misquothed.

Either way, its not worth as much with a missing arm, missing screwpost, soldered ring, damaged(?) medallion and damaged hammer and sickle!

BUT with research and given its low serial number, it could tell a VERY interesting story!

What I hinted at as a "VERY interesting story" could be that this order may have been awarded to a foreigner as Ed hinted - giving the tiny minute possibility that this was a "genuine conversion" done by the foreign recipient. However, my method of collecting does not include taking gambles and buying every order on the odd chance that its was worn by Mr Zukhov, Mr Brezhnev or Mr Gagarin ........

Therefore, given the very low probabilty of this order being awarded to a foreigner, why should anyone spend few hundred dollars on what remains after all a (regretfully) "bastardised" red star, when the same few hundreds of dollars may probably buy you a proper red star. Any screwback order that has a ring welded to it, has the screwpost cut, and has such bad enamal and medallion damage is WORTHLESS and has nothing going for it, OTHER THAN the S/N and the research possibility.

As this forum consists not only of experienced collectors but also of newbies and variation collectors, it is important that we call a spade a spade, and this 'variation' of the Order of the Red Star, not a 'variation' but MOST PROBABLY a 'bastardisation' made in the name of profit - of course in my very humble opinion!

Regards,

Jim

Edited July 29, 2008 by JimZ

[new world]

Without documentation or photographic proof this order should be treated as a fantasy piece.

[paddywhack]

heres my red banner

[paddywhack]

and the front!!(cos i can!!)

[paddywhack]

and a close up on the back! i think its PERFECTLY plasabul(?) for some vets to either make some orders to screw back OR to make them into the "new" style 5 sided suspension orders!(as in back when they 1st came out!)

Edited July 29, 2008 by paddywhack

[JimZ]

and a close up on the back! i think its PERFECTLY plasabul(?) for some vets to either make some orders to screw back OR to make them into the "new" style 5 sided suspension orders!(as in back when they 1st came out!)

You're confusing the issue here as the ORB started out as a screwback and was converted to a suspension by virtue of regulations.

The Order of the Red Star was never a suspension order at any stage of its existence. Two very different issues!

Jim

[paddywhack]

yeah i know but what im saying is that this sort of thing did happen! whether its converting one thing to another or vice versa!! :beer:

[JimZ]

Agreed ..... plausible and acceptable within the limits of regulations.

But when we move beyond that then the term 'fantasy piece' comes into play.

I just do not want anyone thinking - oh, it might be plausible as it happened to other orders. That is just it - with other orders its most plausible (but only in so far as its an early serial number falling within the range of screwback that suddenly became a suspension order becasue of a change in regularions

Rick, demonstrates the opposite happening with the triple ORB cavalier from McDaniels and Schmitt being converted from suspension to screwback.

However, the red star was always a screw back award and logically, this should not have happened to it.

Not much more to add on this one without being repetitive.

Jim

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

I do not wish to add fuel to the fire here; but I could swear that within the past year I have seen a ?foreign? group (I am quite sure that it was British) which had a Red Star on a ribbon in it. I think that it may have been offered by a British dealer or auction house.

Does anyone else remember this?

Regards,

Wild Card

[JimZ]

No fire here.....

Only 3 plausible explanation in my eyes!

1 - "Foreign Awardee" (VERY INTERESTING STORY)

2 - "Fake"

3 - "Russian Awardee ignorant of wearing regulations"

Researching the order would reveal whether it was awarded to a foreigner. But beyond that and without evidence to the contrary this is all speculation.

Jim

[paddywhack]

I do think this was issued to a mybe a british person as i KNOW iv seen a red star mounted on a british group for artic convoyies!il have a look for the thread!plus the 'modifcations! Look very well done and the enamel looks damaged from wear!i reckon this will go for massive money in the end!

[Wild Card]

Yes! Now that you mention it, there was an Arctic Convoy connection to the bar that I mentioned earlier.

[new world]

Are there pictures of the group you keep mentioning?

Without any proof whatsoever award in the auction does not have any credibility.

[Ed_Haynes]

Not wanting to add more fuel to the flames in what is getting a bit "snarly", but three British groups follow. All images small and not great, but the groups aren't mine.