Bavaria What do you know about Bavarian MVOs and MVKs

[v.Perlet]

Hello landsknechte,

 

any info regarding dimensions, weight, thickness, material composition?

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[landsknechte]

Quote

any info regarding dimensions, weight, thickness, material composition?

 

Regards

v.Perlet

 

Weight: 5.1g

The cross is 17.5mm wide at it's widest part. 

The thickest part of the center roundel is 2.6mm.

It appears to be copper, or some sort of mostly copper alloy.  I don't really have a way to test that other than appearance 

[v.Perlet]

Hello landsknechte,

 

thanks for the info. I think it could very well be the raw die-cast for a miniature MVO on a chain.

Interesting that the cast also behold the ring mounting.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[v.Perlet]

Hello gents,

 

i would appreciate some input in regards to the Bavarian Ulan Photo.

 

I am aware that the thread is about MVO and MVK's - luckily he seems to wear a ribbon of these awards.

I would have four questions to this photo:

 

1. is it a pre-war photo? - looks like a 1895-1910 Ulanka, and only one Kokarde

2. Can on a B/W photo a ribbon representing an MVO be differentiated from a ribbon belonging to a MVK?

if yes, is it an MVO ribbon or MVK ribbon?

3. Is the chap an officer? no Mannschafts button on the collar also no NCO Tresse.

4. Can someone who is experienced in determining original colors on B/W photo tell me if the Epaulet frame would be silver or bronze/gold.

 

Initially I thought its an MVO or MVK ribbon - but not knowing about how actual colors show up in B/W I assumed that it might be a China Gedenkmuenze ribbon - which would have been fantastic? since to my knowledge only one Bavarian Ulan Officer a Lt. (if the chap is an officer) and 11 privates plus one Trompeteer took part in the China expedition.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited February 5, 2022 by v.Perlet

[spolei]

Hi there, based on the band, it is not possible to distinguish the MVO or MVK level. The ribbon is definitely from the MVK/MVO. I would place the picture in the post-war period, since only the Bavarian cork is still on the cap. The uniforms were also used after the war. This MVK ribbon was not introduced until the end of 1913 and, with a few exceptions, was only awarded during the World War. Where do the figures for the Bavarian participants in the China expedition come from? That was a lot more. E.g. Ritter von Epp was an officer in this campaign. There were no separate Bavarian contingents, as Reich troops were deployed there. The Bavarian soldiers were released from the army for the expeditionary force. The Bavarian king awarded 7 military merit medals (medals for bravery) for the China campaign.
More Informations
http://www.boxeraufstand.com/
 

Here a report about bavarians in the china campaign
http://muc.postkolonial.net/files/2012/05/China_Kolonialkrieger.pdf

Edited February 5, 2022 by spolei

[v.Perlet]

Hello spolei

 

thanks for your reply. MVO or MVK ribbon agreed. Unless otherwise convinced the Uniform is 1910 or before and the Chap could very well be a Leutnant.  Therefore it would off course be very interesting when the photo was taken. Normally one won't wait for 5-10 years to take a photo in his old uniform. So it is feasible that the photo was taken somewhere around 1900-1910 and the award would then be a peacetime MVO for Officers or MVK silver for non-officers without swords.

The ribbon part you would know better then me.

 

The figures regarding participants (volunteers off course integrated into the East-Asia-Cavalry-Regiment) from the Bavarian Ulan regiments results from the Tradition homepage of the Bay,Ulanenregiment1/2, sources and research conducted by http://www.boxeraufstand.com/  and also in little parts by myself. - i am only referring to Bavarian Ulanen.

 

Franz Xaver Epp was only Rittered in 1916? and he was an Infantry guy in the Bavarian Army - he was never in a Ulan Regiment - he served in the 19th Bavarian Infantry regiment as Oberleutnant and joined with that rank the officer corps in the 4. Ostasiatisches Infanterie-Regiment.

 

Okay lets see what further enlightenment will be shed on that Ulan photo.?

 

Regards

v.Perlet

17 hours ago, landsknechte said:

 

Weight: 5.1g

The cross is 17.5mm wide at it's widest part. 

The thickest part of the center roundel is 2.6mm.

It appears to be copper, or some sort of mostly copper alloy.  I don't really have a way to test that other than appearance 

 

Hello landsknechte,

 

here is a photo of a Miniature MVO presently being offered (horrible looking piece-okay after all it is very small?)

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[spolei]

 

 

Here are the three types of ribbons used by MVK and MVO. Only the first class of the MVO had a different color sequence, which is irrelevant here, since it was worn around the neck.
On the left the ribbon used from 1866 until the First World War. From 1913, the band with the black side stripes was introduced for participants in the war. In 1915 there was the so-called "official ribbon" for war service to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants, because both received crosses with swords. Since the Ulan wears the war ribbon, the photo cannot be from before the First World War. Ancestry's personnel records often mention that the officer is entitled to continue wearing his uniform after being discharged. Therefore, the picture can well come from the 20s. Is it labeled on the back? When the field-grey uniform from the war was broken, the old pre-war uniform was put back on. After WW1 hardly anyone had money to re-equip themselves.

Hier die drei Bandarten, die bei MVK und MVO Verwendung gefunden haben. Lediglich die erste Klasse des MVO hatte eine andere Farbfolge, was hier aber unwesentlich ist, da er am Hals getragen wurde.
Links das Band, dass von 1866 bis zum Ersten Weltkrieg verwendet wurde. Ab 1913 wurde für Kriegsteilnehmer das Band mit den schwarzen Seitenstreifen eingeführt. 1915 gab es für Kriegsverdienst das sogenannte "Beamtenband", um den Unterschied zwischen Kämpfer und Nichtkämpfer zu unterscheiden, denn beide bekamen die Kreuze mit Schwertern.
Da der Ulan das Kriegsband trägt, kann folglich kann die Aufnahme nicht vor dem 1. Weltkrieg stammen. In den Personalbögen auf Ancestry ist oftmals erwähnt, dass der Offizier nach der Entlassung berechtigt ist, seine Uniform weiter zu tragen. Von daher kann das Bild gut aus den 20ern stammen. Ist es rückseitig beschriftet? Wenn die feldgraue Uniform aus dem Krieg kaputt war, dann hat man die alte Vorkriegsuniform wieder angezogen. Nach dem WK1 hatte doch kaum noch jemand Geld sich neu auszurüsten.

[VtwinVince]

Impossible to say which ribbon it is, but definitely one of the MVK series.

Edited February 5, 2022 by VtwinVince

[v.Perlet]

12 hours ago, spolei said:

 

 

 

Here are the three types of ribbons used by MVK and MVO. Only the first class of the MVO had a different color sequence, which is irrelevant here, since it was worn around the neck.
On the left the ribbon used from 1866 until the First World War. From 1913, the band with the black side stripes was introduced for participants in the war. In 1915 there was the so-called "official ribbon" for war service to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants, because both received crosses with swords. Since the Ulan wears the war ribbon, the photo cannot be from before the First World War. Ancestry's personnel records often mention that the officer is entitled to continue wearing his uniform after being discharged. Therefore, the picture can well come from the 20s. Is it labeled on the back? When the field-grey uniform from the war was broken, the old pre-war uniform was put back on. After WW1 hardly anyone had money to re-equip themselves.

Hier die drei Bandarten, die bei MVK und MVO Verwendung gefunden haben. Lediglich die erste Klasse des MVO hatte eine andere Farbfolge, was hier aber unwesentlich ist, da er am Hals getragen wurde.
Links das Band, dass von 1866 bis zum Ersten Weltkrieg verwendet wurde. Ab 1913 wurde für Kriegsteilnehmer das Band mit den schwarzen Seitenstreifen eingeführt. 1915 gab es für Kriegsverdienst das sogenannte "Beamtenband", um den Unterschied zwischen Kämpfer und Nichtkämpfer zu unterscheiden, denn beide bekamen die Kreuze mit Schwertern.
Da der Ulan das Kriegsband trägt, kann folglich kann die Aufnahme nicht vor dem 1. Weltkrieg stammen. In den Personalbögen auf Ancestry ist oftmals erwähnt, dass der Offizier nach der Entlassung berechtigt ist, seine Uniform weiter zu tragen. Von daher kann das Bild gut aus den 20ern stammen. Ist es rückseitig beschriftet? Wenn die feldgraue Uniform aus dem Krieg kaputt war, dann hat man die alte Vorkriegsuniform wieder angezogen. Nach dem WK1 hatte doch kaum noch jemand Geld sich neu auszurüsten.

 

Hello spolei,

 

thanks again for the input - very appreciated!

I admit the photo is very confusing at least to me. It's an officer (Lt) wearing the "Bunte Rock" Ulanka, it is not the Fielduniform. The Ulanka he is wearing was introduced in 1895 and was worn till as long as the uniform might last.

The cap he is wearing as already mentioned, shows only the Bavarian state Kokarde - the regulation for adding the Imperial Kokarde was AFAIK issued in 1912/13. - see below photo of Ulan father (colonel) and Ulan son (Lt.) taken in 1913.

 

Unforunatley the photo with the Lt. chap shows no date and the text written on the reverse doesn't make sense.

So if it does not show a ribbon that was issued before WW1 incl. a peacetime award - then the photo might have been taken very early in 1914. I don't know why you think it is a post war photo. IMHO the chap is barely 20 years old. (okay thats just me)

 

Last question: Were officers awarded with MVK's?

From what I know - which isn't much it would be:

• MVK 3rd Class with Swords: Gefreiter, Soldat (Infanterist, Kanonier, Chevauleger, etc.)
• MVK 3rd Class with Crown and Swords: Sergeant, Unteroffizier
• MVK 2nd Class with Swords: Feldwebel, Vizefeldwebel
• MVK 2nd Class with Crown and Swords: Offizierstellvertreter
• MVK 1st Class with Swords&with/without crown: Feldwebelleutnant and etatsm.Feldwebel

 

• MVO 4th Class with Swords: Hauptmann/Rittmeister, Oberleutnant, Leutnant
• MVO 4th Class with Crown and Swords: Major
• MVO 3rd Class with Swords: Oberstleutnant
• MVO 3rd Class with Crown and Swords: Oberst
• MVO Officer's Cross: Oberst
• MVO 2nd Class with Swords: Generalmajor
• MVO 2nd Class with Star and Swords: Generalleutnant
• MVO 1st Class with Swords: General

 

Since I do not want to derail the MVO/MVK thread with uniform issues, I might take the photo to another topic.

 

Thanks again for your help

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited February 6, 2022 by v.Perlet

[spolei]

The MVO was awarded from the rank of lieutenant. All enlisted and non-commissioned officer ranks received the MVK. The Feldwebelleutnant also got the first class with swords. The MVK/MVO were not promoted, i.e. if a private received a third class and was later promoted, then he kept the 3rd class. If the MVK was then awarded again, then according to the rank, the lower class had to be returned. It was the same with the MVO. If an officer received an MVK as an ensign, he also wore the MVK as an officer. If he was then awarded an MVO, the MVK was returned. For the officers, the level of the MVO was based on their official position such as company commander. Regimental Commander, Battalion Commander etc..
 

Der MVO wurde ab dem Dienstgrad Leutnant verliehen. Alle Mannschafts- und Unteroffiziersdienstgrade bekamen das MVK. Auch der Feldwebelleutnant bekam die erste Klasse mit Schwertern.
Die MVK/MVO wurden nicht mitbefördert, d.h. wenn ein Gefreiter eine dritte Klasse bekommen hat und später befördert wurde, dann behielt er die 3. Klasse. Wurde dann das MVK ein weiteres Mal verliehen, dann dem Dienstgrad entsprechend, die untere Klasse musste zurückgegeben werden. Genauso verhielt es sich beim MVO.
Wenn ein Offizier als Fähnrich ein MVK bekommen hat, so hat er das MVK auch als Offizier getragen. Wurde ihm dann noch ein MVO verliehen, dann wurde das MVK zurückgegeben. Bei den Offizieren richtete sich die Stufe des MVO nach ihrer Dienststellung wie Kompanieführer. Regimentsführer, Bataillonsführer etc..

 

[v.Perlet]

Hello spolei,

 

thanks again - it basically confirms my knowledge about Officers being awarded with a MVO and not a MVK.

 

I still maintain my view, that this photo was taken before the war - due to a very young Lt. wearing the 1895 introduced Parade Ulanka and the pre-1913 cap style with a single Kokarde. I would not categorically out-rule that a photo displaying those Uniform attributes might have been taken in the early month of the war.

- but then the Lt. wouldn't have been awarded with a 1914 onward MVK.

Other possibilities e.g. being awarded with an MVK due to being a Faehnerich and later promoted to Lt. (still wearing a pre-1913 cap insignia style) are just speculative assumptions and simply don't correlate with what the photo shows.

 

Reading through the entire thread, and having seen multiple MVO's single or displayed on bars with ribbons confirm that this chap is displaying an MVO ribbon and could very well have been awarded a MVO in the period 1900 - 1910 - which fits perfectly with the aforementioned uniform issues and his rank.

 

See great example of Major Wilhelm Schwandner:

He got the KO4X and MVO4X in DSWA as a Leutnant.

KO4X - 17.8.1905
MVO4X - 07.12.1905

Fähnrich - 8.2.1899
Leutnant - 7.3.1900
Oerleutnant - 18.10.1909
Hauptmann - 26.10.1914
Major - 15.10.1919

If you or anyone else would have 1900-1910 photos of ribbons in view of a pre-war MVO.s on officers please kindly post them - thanks and let's keep this thread back on MVO/MVK.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[Daniel Krause]

Dear v. Perlet,

 

Please understand finally that this special war ribbon for the MVO was NOT introduced until 1913.... so the pic can NOT pre-date this year.

Awardees who got the MVO for war merits with swords before 1913 did still wear it on the standard ribbon...but could wear it AFTER 1913 on the new created war ribbon.

 

Its a plain WW1 pic. Nothing more.

 

Best,

Daniel 

[v.Perlet]

7 hours ago, Daniel Krause said:

Dear v. Perlet,

 

Please understand finally that this special war ribbon for the MVO was NOT introduced until 1913.... so the pic can NOT pre-date this year.

Awardees who got the MVO for war merits with swords before 1913 did still wear it on the standard ribbon...but could wear it AFTER 1913 on the new created war ribbon.

 

Its a plain WW1 pic. Nothing more.

 

Best,

Daniel 

 

Hello Daniel,

 

Are you forwarding that all Bavarian orders before 1913 - no matter if an 1866/1870 award, or a pre-1900 Knight-cross 2nd class, a 1903 MVO in gold, or 1907 MVK in silver all beheld the same ribbon?

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited February 7, 2022 by v.Perlet

[waldo]

Servus,

All pre-1913 MVOs and MVKs had the same ribbon. In 
the picture by Spolei, the ribbon on the far left.

VG Walter.

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by waldo

[v.Perlet]

8 hours ago, waldo said:

Servus,

All pre-1913 MVOs and MVKs had the same ribbon. In 
the picture by Spolei, the ribbon on the far left.

VG Walter.

 

Servus,

 

wos?! vie einfaltslos, und des ois unter unserm Kini - Schock

 

Okay I got it now - thanks and regards

Andreas

[lew]

Another photo shown MVO ribbon worn in button hole. Major Paul Schmitt, he has a MVO3 with crown and sword.

 

 

 

And his medal/ribbon bars, note the different ribbons of war time MVO at 1st place and pre-war MVO at 5th.

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by lew

[03fahnen]

On 6/2/2022 at 6:31, v.Perlet said:

 

Hola spolei,

 

gracias de nuevo por la entrada - muy apreciado!

Admito que la foto es muy confusa al menos para mí. Es un oficial (Lt) que lleva el "Bunte Rock" Ulanka, no es el uniforme de campo. El Ulanka que lleva puesto se introdujo en 1895 y se usó hasta que duró el uniforme.

La gorra que lleva, como ya se mencionó, muestra solo el estado bávaro Kokarde: el reglamento para agregar el Imperial Kokarde se emitió AFAIK en 1912/13. - vea a continuación la foto del padre de Ulan (coronel) y el hijo de Ulan (teniente) tomada en 1913.

 

Desafortunadamente, la foto con el teniente no muestra la fecha y el texto escrito en el reverso no tiene sentido.

Entonces, si no muestra una cinta que se emitió antes de la Primera Guerra Mundial, incl. un premio en tiempos de paz, entonces la foto podría haber sido tomada muy temprano en 1914. No sé por qué crees que es una foto de posguerra. En mi humilde opinión, el tipo tiene apenas 20 años. (Está bien, solo soy yo)

 

Última pregunta: ¿Se otorgaron a los oficiales MVK?

Por lo que sé, que no es mucho, sería:

• MVK 3ra Clase con Espadas: Gefreiter, Soldat (Infanterist, Kanonier, Chevauleger, etc.)
• MVK de 3.ª clase con corona y espadas: sargento, unteroffizier
• MVK de segunda clase con espadas: Feldwebel, Vizefeldwebel
• MVK de segunda clase con corona y espadas: Offizierstellvertreter
• MVK de primera clase con espadas y con/sin corona: Feldwebelleutnant y etatsm.Feldwebel

 

• MVO 4.ª clase con espadas: Hauptmann/Rittmeister, Oberleutnant, Leutnant
• MVO 4ta Clase con Corona y Espadas: Mayor
• MVO 3ra clase con espadas: Oberstleutnant
• MVO 3ra clase con corona y espadas: Oberst
• Cruz de oficial de MVO: Oberst
• MVO 2da Clase con Espadas: Generalmajor
• MVO 2da Clase con Estrella y Espadas: Generalleutnant
• MVO 1ra Clase con Espadas: General

 

Como no quiero descarrilar el hilo MVO/MVK con problemas uniformes, podría llevar la foto a otro tema.

 

De nuevo, gracias por tu ayuda

Saludos

v.Perlet

 

In any case, it must be clarified that it is not a lieutenant, the EPAULETTEN are of the type used by the classes of troops and non-commissioned officers.
The officer ones have a gallon on the narrow part and no scales.

 

[VtwinVince]

Spectacular stuff Lew!

[ccj]

7 hours ago, lew said:

Another photo shown MVO ribbon worn in button hole. Major Paul Schmitt, he has a MVO3 with crown and sword.

 

 

 

And his medal/ribbon bars, note the different ribbons of war time MVO at 1st place and pre-war MVO at 5th.

 

Thats a wonderful photo and superb ribbon and medal bar. Was he general staff or other?

[lew]

5 hours ago, ccj said:

Thats a wonderful photo and superb ribbon and medal bar. Was he general staff or other?

General staff he was.

[v.Perlet]

14 hours ago, 03fahnen said:

 

In any case, it must be clarified that it is not a lieutenant, the EPAULETTEN are of the type used by the classes of troops and non-commissioned officers.
The officer ones have a gallon on the narrow part and no scales.

 

Hello 03fahnen,

 

yes correct, he could be anything from UFFz to Faehnerich

Thanks for the input

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Hello gents and Iew

 

great photo and an even better looking Medal bar!

 

I intend to purchase the posted MVO 4 Klasse - is it really a J.L? because the sword "ribbon"? does not look familiar to other crosses by J.L that I have seen. - The sword binding does however look very similar/identical to the left pictured MVO in Iew's medal-bar -comments appreciated.

 

Thanks and regards

v.Perlet

Edited February 8, 2022 by v.Perlet

[spolei]

It is a late  MVO of Leser. The front and rear medaillon are silver guilt.
Before any assumptions arise again, the flames are only patinated.
It's a 4th grad

Edited February 8, 2022 by spolei

[lew]

2 hours ago, v.Perlet said:

I intend to purchase the posted MVO 4 Klasse - is it really a J.L? because the sword "ribbon"?

 

Yes it's J.L. It says here.

 

[v.Perlet]

7 minutes ago, spolei said:

It is a late  MVO of Leser. The front and rear medaillon are silver guilt.
 

 

Thanks for the help spolei and Iew- appreciated. I wasn't sure if just a Punze (marking) can be trusted.? Iew is your MVO (left one) also a Leser?

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited February 8, 2022 by v.Perlet

[spolei]

27 minutes ago, v.Perlet said:

 

Thanks for the help spolei and Iew- appreciated. I wasn't sure if just a Punze (marking) can be trusted.? Iew is your MVO (left one) also a Leser?

Regards

v.Perlet

The left one is a late Leser 3rd class. The same swords like the 4th class.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by spolei