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21 minutes ago, Claudio said:

Interesting... if you could find a deal to buy stuff from him directly you would have spent much less money... and he could probably got more out of it! 

Btw on the catalogue it was mentioned that this stuff came directly from the family (Familienbesitz)... so that was not entirely true... or was it???

Hi, somewhere in the catalog it mentions that the consignor who had it bought the group from the son.

Yup, I would have gotten the ring and Schörner's copy of the regt history for about EUR700 less than I paid for it on the auction, including fees. All because of my bloody spam folder.....

15 minutes ago, Claudio said:

7900 euros for a medal bar probably mounted after the war... mmmmhhh... not good enough for me...:speechless:

From that lot I was mostly intereted in the Bavarian Award certificate and his 1920s drivers license ... but I don't think we can pinpoint when the bar was made...

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Wow.... it was a loooong search..... I finally found a pic of a leiberring being worn... this photo must have been just after the end of the war with the reservisten sticks...... the >NCO on the ri

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On 17/7/2017 at 19:31, Chris Boonzaier said:

Hi, somewhere in the catalog it mentions that the consignor who had it bought the group from the son.

Yup, I would have gotten the ring and Schörner's copy of the regt history for about EUR700 less than I paid for it on the auction, including fees. All because of my bloody spam folder.....

From that lot I was mostly intereted in the Bavarian Award certificate and his 1920s drivers license ... but I don't think we can pinpoint when the bar was made...

Surely after the Anschluss of the Ostmark (Austria)... he moved that Austrian WWI MVK3 before the FEK (Hindy cross)... that cross was considered German after Austria annexed in March 1938...

 

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13 hours ago, Claudio said:

7900 euros for a medal bar probably mounted after the war... mmmmhhh... not good enough for me...:speechless:

Hmmmm... looking at the photo with him wearing a bar, that seems to be prewar with no anschluss... so this maybe points to this being a post anschluss bar, and could very well be wartime

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During war German soldiers weren't allowed to wear the full bar, it was prohibited (that's why so many bars weren't updated with the EK 1939 clasp or the WiO for example), just feldspangen was allowed. Although I have seen lots of Pictures with soldiers during WWII wearing medal bars, especially at weddings or unofficial/private Events.

Here some other stuff of Schörner that finally weren't offered on the auction.

Enjoy! ;-)

 

Claudio

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OK, some reflection here......

The photo we see is him wearing a medal bar before the Anchluss

I think we can assume he would have had a new bar done after he recieved the anchluss medal. I would find it very unusual that someone of his rank did not have his medal bars up to date.

With reflection I dont see any reason to doubt this was his immediate prewar/wartime bar, with the caveat that, like with ANY bar, there is always a tiny possibility that it was remounted at some time, but that possibility exists with any bar a collector has had in his collection since 1945.

But I don't see any signs that should make us suspicious?

As far as price goes, if I had had the money ready I would have grabbed it. And pray I get the chance somewhere down the line.

I think the docs with the bar would have been worth about eur1500-2000 to me on their own. Can we really say that a medal bar like this is not worth 3-4 times more than the same bar to an anonymous officer?

If his Militärpass had been to Leutnant Arsch it would have been worth EUR50. I ended up paying EUR1900 (with fees) (and i am not a millionaire collector) and for me it is worth every penny. So 38 times the cost if it had not been his.

Owning this bar is owning a piece of history... the EUR1500 version to an unknown recipient is for me no barometer to measure it.

Just my 8c worth... :-)

 

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Hi Chris!


You are totally right to say it's a piece of history; it all boils down to how much are you prepared to pay for it. I think that you did well buying the ring; I'm sure that Schörner wore much more his "Leiberring" and it was quite special to him. Maybe he was wearing it during the assault at Caporetto in October 1917, who knows it?:)... for sure not the medal bar...;)

Eur 1'500.- was the value of the medals if they were worn by a Oberstleutnant Schmidt, Müller or even Arschloch... I was ready to pay up to 3 times the price, but no more than that. For that Price however, I'd have liked to have seen the reverse of the bar, just to be on the safe side. It's also possible that he had 2 bars... some officers owned many bars, like a civilian attire "Frackspange" and also a normal "Ordensspange" to be worn with the uniform. I heard of a Colonel/Oberst who had 6 (!) EK1 1914!

I remember that Th. had for sale also the medal bar of General Deitrich Von Saucken, 27th recipient RK with oak leaves, swords & diamonds, starting price Eur 5'000.- and he didn't sell it  (see Pictures below). Also in this case there weren't any pictures of the back of the bar neither Information about the provenence (who owned it before, from where it came... etc.). Moreover the combination's of von Saucken's medal bar was somewhat less unique and interesting.

Again, Chris, well done with that ring... it fits perfectly in your collection and, if I can say so, to your Leiber "addiction"... I'm also quite interested in that Regiment, the Alpenkorps and especially the "Gebirgsjäger"... being a Swiss! ;):P

C

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55 minutes ago, Claudio said:

Hi Chris!

gain, Chris, well done with that ring... it fits perfectly in your collection and, if I can say so, to your Leiber "addiction"... I'm also quite interested in that Regiment, the Alpenkorps and especially the "Gebirgsjäger"... being a Swiss! ;):P

C

 

 

Indeed... the Leiber addiction.... that is probably the key.... I put the value on the bar BECAUSE he was a Leiber.... if he had been any other unit I would still recognise the Historical significance, but would also not have been interested in paying the price ;-)

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I agree with Chris, Lets keep the discussion about the rings and the medals. 

6 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Best to keep any discussion about his post 1918 life seperate.... for me he is like OJ Simpson, there was early OJ... and later OJ.... up until 1918 Schörner was the man....

Kind regards Laurentius

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Chris,

Though I am not comparing the two documents, I know how you feel about getting this Militärpaß. I had a similar feeling when I won the 124er pass signed by Rommel. :beer:

Chip

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Hi Chris!

Now you HAVE to visit the Kolovrat where Schörner for his actions earned the PlM near Kobarit (Caporetto in Italian, Karfreit in German), where the German (Alpenkorps) and Austrian troops lauched their offensive on a foggy and rainy October 23rd 1917. Soon it will be 100 years anniversary, sure enough, as I spoke with the Museum director in Kobarit a couple of years back, (beautiful Museum, they organize excursions to the various front https://www.kobariski-muzej.si/gefuhrte_touren/fuhrungen_zu_ehemaligen_frontabschnitten/ , I have been there twice!), they will have something organized this year. Every year, he told me, on that very date they organize a trekking trip to the Matajur and repeat the route taken by Rommel to get to the summit and completly take by surprise and surround all the Italian troops in this part of the front (Rommel alone with its Wurttembergian mountain "Kampfgruppe" of 2-3 reinforced companies took 9'000 prisoners). The first being awarded was Schörner; in fact that award was intented for the first officer who could take the Kolovrat heights. The Central power's generality thought this might have been the furthest break-through point to achieve during that offensive. But Rommel went on, took the oppurtunity to fully use the favorable momentum, also driven by the fact that he badly wanted to win the PlM, too. Finally, thanks also to Major Sproesser's insistance and recommendations (commanding officer of the whole Wurttembergian mountain troops/battalion and direct superior of Rommel then Oberleutnant, same rank of Schörner too), Rommel got his so ardently desired PlM (as well as Major Sproesser did receive it... see picture!).

I would love to visit these places again... the history there is so great! Food and locations also! Slovenians are very friendly and most can speak Italian and English well. So interesting; you can still find a lot of trenches and paths to walk... all very well described. The view from the Matajur over the valley of the Isonzo/Soca river (North) and on the plains towards Udine and Triest (South) is just breathtaking and it shows so well how important was to take this Mount for the Central powers... after that point there were no natural obstacles until Venezia, apart from the rivers (like Piave where the offensive was eventually stopped). If they had taken the bridges or the western banks of the river Piave, the Central powers troops would have taken Venezia and the Po plains ...

Very interesting stuff... ;-)

Ciao,

 

C


 

sproesser rommel.png

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Hmmm.......I wouldn't, not a good portrait IMO. And WW2 at that. Surely, there's something more fitting somewhere as they did like the posing photos in WW1.

Given the Rommel photo above, someone has to have a nice one.........

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1 hour ago, Spasm said:

Hmmm.......I wouldn't, not a good portrait IMO. And WW2 at that. Surely, there's something more fitting somewhere as they did like the posing photos in WW1.

Given the Rommel photo above, someone has to have a nice one.........

Hi,

 

agreed, the portrait I want is the 1st Pic you posted. If I get the enlargement of the last one it is purely to make out the details on what ring he is wearing.

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  • 1 month later...

Hello Chris,
Congratulations to your officers' body ring. You are really the Lord of the Rings.

My grandfather was 1917 when he was transferred by the 11th company ILR, yes also for a few days still active in the 12th Company.
In his supplementary sheet of the military passport. Submissions inFeb. 1918. Is even the signature of the company commander. Lieutenant and company commander Schoerner

Best greetings from Bavaria
Hackei

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