What decorations belong here

[ccj]

What decorations would be appropriate on the right side of the tunic breast?

I know the Turkish War Medal and possibly other foreign but I really don’t see many Germans with awards on the right side 

And on this tunic, two sets of loops on the right

[VtwinVince]

The only others that come to mind are the AH aviation badges.

[laurentius]

Dear CCJ,

I agree that the loops on the left side are for the Iron Crescent. The horizontal loops on the right side are for a medal/ribbonbar which can be filled by any piece which is appropriate for the rank. Talking about rank, I don't have a great view of the shoulderboards but I think it is a colonel if my eyes do not deceive me, this would allow for some lovely steckkreuzen together with an EK1 on the lower right side. 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[ccj]

He was a a colonel and promoted Generalmajor a la suite 

 

Graf Castell-Castell

[GdC26]

Perhaps this helps? Militärhandbuch 1916.

Cheers,

Sandro

[saschaw]

Wow, now that's an impressive combination of high awards... however, just in case this is a path the further discussion might take: I would avoid to add anything else than what someone had, if such a tunic is attributed to a certain person. Or in doubt: not replace any (other, non-fitting) awards. But that's just my few Pfenninge as a purist.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by saschaw

[JasonA]

I was thinking any of the Austro-Hungarian badges....

J-

Edited August 18, 2019 by JasonA

[GdC26]

6 minutes ago, JasonA said:

I was thinking any of the Austro-Hungarian badges....

J-

Nope, any stars of the main Austrian orders would be worn on the right hand side, just like the stars and pinback crosses of most German states.

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by GdC26

[Utgardloki]

22 minutes ago, GdC26 said:

Nope, any stars of the main Austrian orders would be worn on the right hand side, just like the stars and pinback crosses of most German states.

 

Not all, the star of the "Komturkreuz mit Stern" of the Franz-Joseph-Order was worn on the right side (or if You look at the person left side) and he apparently got the insignia according to the Militärhandbuch.
But I am not sure if a star was mounted that low?

Edited August 18, 2019 by Utgardloki

[GdC26]

1 hour ago, Utgardloki said:

Not all, the star of the "Komturkreuz mit Stern" of the Franz-Joseph-Order was worn on the right side (or if You look at the person left side) and he apparently got the insignia according to the Militärhandbuch.
But I am not sure if a star was mounted that low?

You are correct, I didn't think about that. Apart from the hight on the tunic, the loops seem to be spaced a bit close together for an FJO commanders start - but CCJ should be able to judge that.

Charles, how far apart are the loops?

[JasonA]

Where it was worn on the tunic varied based on wearer preference when it comes to vertical positioning.  While I’m not intimately familiar with these awards, the pins can’t all have been the same.  Just because it doesn’t fit one maker of a particular badge doesn’t mean it wouldn’t fit another.

J-

[GdC26]

I've checked my further references, particularly the Bavarian Rangliste 1918, but have not found anything more definitive.

Note that the June 1916 dated Castell Bluse shown in the pic below has two sets of loops on the right breast, with the upper set placed appropriately for the FJO.

FJO stars are quire heavy, especially compared to Steckkreuz type awards like the Officierskreuze of orders of various German states.  The commander stars  are also comparatively compact in size - so if the vertical spacing between the loops is wide enough (and wider than an Offizierskreuz of say the Oldenburg Hausorden or the Bavarian Michaelsorden) they could have held an FJO commanders star. However, the set up on the blouse could be seen to argue against that, and could suggest that von Castell had another, Offizierskreuz level award that would be worn on the right side, beneath the FJO. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by GdC26

[Utgardloki]

After inspecting the picture again there seem to be also two pairs of loops!

Edited August 19, 2019 by Utgardloki

[GdC26]

Ok, this one has been nagging me. Since there is nothing in the lists besides the FJO komtur that would be worn on the right breast, I've gone back to my references to see what Bavarian officers did wear on the right side. Not much, as it turns out, at least not much in terms of true decorations (they did wear commemorative - unit - badges etc. to post war veterans meetings).

But I did find one thing that might fit: the Erinnerungszeichen an die Goldene Hochzeit 1918. Not unlikely for an adjutant to the king, and worn on the right breast, roughly on the spot of the second paidr of loops, as the post war pic below confirms.

So: FJO on upper right breast, with the Erinnerungszeichen underneath it?

Edited August 19, 2019 by GdC26

[ccj]

Thanks, 

 

I've never seen that badge before. I wonder if Castell-Castell was awarded any Turkish or Bulgarian awards? It would be reasonable to assume so given his position.

[Utgardloki]

I know that is a bit off-topic but is this a field grey Friedensuniform?

I need to buy more literature about those uniforms. What was the main difference to the old blue ones? Sure the color.
No more epaulettes but only shoulder boards? Not so many variations in cavalry uniforms? I have never actually seen a comprehensive description of the differences to the blue one.

[ccj]

So, I wonder how likely it could be that he was awarded honors not listed in the 1916 nor 1918.

in 1916 these awards would have been worn on the breast. It appears only the Franz Joseph would be worn on the right side. (Opposite breast side of medal bar) it looks like his Franz Joseph maybe without War decoration.

Bayern Militär Verdienstorden, Offizierskreuz mit Schwertern

Bayern Verdienstorden vom heiligen Michael, Offizierskreuz

Hohenzollern Hohenzollern Hausorden, Ehrenkomturkreuz mit Schwertern

Mecklenburg Greiffenorden, Offizierskreuz

Preussen Johanitterorden, Kreuz der Ehrenritter

Österreich Franz Josefsorden, Komturkreuz mit der Stern

 

 

[ccj]

6 hours ago, Utgardloki said:

I know that is a bit off-topic but is this a field grey Friedensuniform?

I need to buy more literature about those uniforms. What was the main difference to the old blue ones? Sure the color.
No more epaulettes but only shoulder boards? Not so many variations in cavalry uniforms? I have never actually seen a comprehensive description of the differences to the blue one.

Yes, he wears a a Friedensrock. He’s Bavarian but not sure if the collar litzen represents Leib Regt, General Staff, etc.

 

[Bayern]

Hello, Some tips about Kunftige Friedensuniform , literally the Future Peace Uniform , first .the colour was field grey for nearly all branches ,excepting ,jaegers and Mounted Jaegers, second,collar and cuffs were in the facing colour of the old uniforms and the cuffs were in the diverse types .swedish ,polish, brandeburgers, french , the Litzen returned to their pre war size, the shoulder straps were again fully coloured . third ,all the buttons were plain and bright in silver or gold colour. fourth ,the peaked caps were of stiffened type and with a visor of field grey coloured fibre. that of the Cavalry returned to the peacetime model ,dark blue ,light blue ,white, or grey green with the band and piping in facing colour but with field grey visor . fifth the pickelhauben were practically the peacetime ones ,with gold or silver plated badges , the epaulettes were not used more and the shoulder boards of oficers were of the old type with silver soutache or golden bouillon .the officers litzen ,returned to their peacetime size.

[Utgardloki]

Thanks for the answer.  I finally found a pdf copy of the book "Deutschlands Armee in Kriegs- und Friedens-Uniform" were the new ones are well described. The most impact definitely was on the cavalry units, who lost all their colourful splendor. I am wondering if, if they won the war or made peace without a revolution happening before, they really wouldn't have reintroduced some of the colourful ones, especially when You think of uniform lover Wilhelm. The grey ones are great for military everyday live, but they would have been weird on balls or other evening events.

[ccj]

On 18/08/2019 at 13:16, saschaw said:

Wow, now that's an impressive combination of high awards... however, just in case this is a path the further discussion might take: I would avoid to add anything else than what someone had, if such a tunic is attributed to a certain person. Or in doubt: not replace any (other, non-fitting) awards. But that's just my few Pfenninge as a purist.

Wouldn’t it be great to have the awards Castell was entitled to display on this tunic?

I'm still not convinced Castell was not awarded the EK1 during the war. It’s hard to find good photos of the man but I think this could be him

[Bayern]

Utgardloki , For Hofball or other similar events was reglamented In 1915 a Salonhose , that is long trousers in dark grey almost black colour with large facing colour stripes on the sides of the leg . the ones for mounted jaegers with stripes of the tipycal JzP model . In the collection of Huis Doorn the last residence of William II existed many uniforms of the Kunftige friedensuniform that belonged to the Kaiser and he weared during his exile 

[Utgardloki]

Is there a catalogue  or other publication of all the pieces at Doorn? 

[GdC26]

2 hours ago, Utgardloki said:

Is there a catalogue  or other publication of all the pieces at Doorn? 

Not that I know - but a fair bit of it is shown in this book: https://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=1596672&Language=de

[Utgardloki]

15 minutes ago, GdC26 said:

Not that I know - but a fair bit of it is shown in this book: https://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=1596672&Language=de

Thanks! I own this one - it's fantastic, like all of the books of the Verlag Militaria. 
I think it's really time to make a high quality catalogue of all the objects at Huis Doorn!

Edited August 21, 2019 by Utgardloki