Wearing the Awards .. what would be on the bar?

[Chris Boonzaier]

OK, I would like to get 2 ribbon bars in this mans constellation... one as he would have had it in January 1915, and one as he would have had it in May 1916.

I assume the 1st one would be the Jubiläums Medal and MVO without swords? Would he have worn the Romanian one or removed it from the bar? Romania may have joined the war late, but they were on the allied side long before...

For the 2nd one, the MVO4th class would push the prewar one without swords off the bar? What else would he have worn? And the Austrian one was often worn separately?

[laurentius]

I think we need a bit more info to be able to give proper advice, however, I can already answer some of your questions

4 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Would he have worn the Romanian one or removed it from the bar? Romania may have joined the war late, but they were on the allied side long before...

Awards were worn up untill the moment Romania joined the war, this does however not mean he would have worn his Romanian awards, since most officers tried to keep their ribbonbar down to the bare essentials.

 

5 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

the MVO4th class would push the prewar one without swords off the bar

A MVO4x would not push a MVO4 of a bar, since they were earned at different times they were allowed to be worn together.

 

6 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

And the Austrian one was often worn separately?

Austrian awards would be worn on the ribbonbar/medalbar. There are pictures of German officers wearing a ribbonbar plus an Austrian trifold, but this was usually on the date of bestowel, which for many German soldiers was one of the few moments they were actually photographed.

 

8 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

I assume the 1st one would be the Jubiläums Medal and MVO without swords?

This would be correct if there were no other decorations up untill that point. The EK2 was often worn through the buttonhole, therefore they didn't need to update their ribbonbar.

Hope this helps, 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

I thought I had read that a MVO4th with swords would push a peacetime one off the bar, unless it was for Military Ops? i.e. if the pre 1914 MVO was for China, or DSWA it would stay, but a full peacetime one was replaced?

Thanks

Chris

[laurentius]

54 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

if the pre 1914 MVO was for China, or DSWA it would stay, but a full peacetime one was replaced?

In all three cases the MVO would not be pushed off, this would only happen if the officer got two MVO's in the same conflict

[Chris Boonzaier]

BAAAHHH! Just saw I did not have the Pics added! These are from his records...

 

Ahh... OK,

then I guess i need a bar with MVO4, MVO swords, EK2, Jubi Medal, Anhalf Frierich Kreuz, d.K.2 (Dienst Kreuz II Klasse?) + Austrian ?

[GdC26]

Austrian Militär Verdienstkreuz III. Klasse

 

[laurentius]

2 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

then I guess i need a bar with MVO4, MVO swords, EK2, Jubi Medal, Anhalf Frierich Kreuz, d.K.2 (Dienst Kreuz II Klasse?) + Austrian ?

Yes, in this order (MVO4x, EK2, Anhalt Friedrichkreuz, ÖMVK, JM, BDA)

[ccj]

Chris, are you hoping to find original bar close to what’s needed or build a reproduction bar?

[Chris Boonzaier]

On 24/05/2020 at 18:44, ccj said:

Chris, are you hoping to find original bar close to what’s needed or build a reproduction bar?

Hi, I guess I am going to have to have one made, it needs to be exact. I am guessing the chances were zero of finding the exact one.

[Claudio]

Hi Chris,

Since I cannot send you the image by PM, I'm posting here an image how it could have looked like.

Is that correct?

Cordially

C

 

[Leutwein]

I think that picture will fit here quite weill

 

Best regards

 

Karsten

[Chris Boonzaier]

Fantastic guys, thanks! Would the MVO have been on the order of them bein awarded, or would the one with swords take preference for 1st place?

[David M]

Hi Claudio

 

Where did you find these images? Is there a website?

[laurentius]

2 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Would the MVO have been on the order of them bein awarded, or would the one with swords take preference for 1st place?

Swords take precedence. The peace-time MVO would either go behind the EK or behind the Anhalt Friedrichkreuz, both would be acceptable for a Bavarian. Hope this helps

[Chris Boonzaier]

9 minutes ago, laurentius said:

Swords take precedence. The peace-time MVO would either go behind the EK or behind the Anhalt Friedrichkreuz, both would be acceptable for a Bavarian. Hope this helps

On most bars it seems to be the VO with swords, then directly after the MVO without?

[laurentius]

5 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

On most bars it seems to be the VO with swords, then directly after the MVO without?

We often see this yes, although it goes against the precedence regulations set by the Bavarian state. My safest bet would be behind the EK or behind the Anhalt Friedrichkreuz.

[Claudio]

On 01/06/2020 at 15:30, David M said:

Hi Claudio

 

Where did you find these images? Is there a website?

Hi David,

Here’s the website:

https://www.medals.pl

cheers

Claudio

On 01/06/2020 at 17:35, laurentius said:

Swords take precedence. The peace-time MVO would either go behind the EK or behind the Anhalt Friedrichkreuz, both would be acceptable for a Bavarian. Hope this helps

My mistake.,,  you are right!  ;)

[Chris Boonzaier]

On 01/06/2020 at 23:00, laurentius said:

We often see this yes, although it goes against the precedence regulations set by the Bavarian state. My safest bet would be behind the EK or behind the Anhalt Friedrichkreuz.

I may be wrong, but i cannot remember seeing a bar with MVOs seperated? They always seem to be next to each other on a bar?

[laurentius]

2 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

may be wrong, but i cannot remember seeing a bar with MVOs seperated? They always seem to be next to each other on a bar?

Bavarians can be rather capricious when it comes to medalbars. Although it goes against precedence most of the Bavarian officers went their own way. I managed to find a picture on the forum of a medalbar where the MVO4x and the MVO4 are seperated. I know there are atleast several other ones on this forum, but this is the first one I found.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi, I think there is a turning point... lets not forget... during the war, fot bavarians... Prussian, Saxon etx were considered "Foreign" awards... if you look at the entries above, there are "bavarian" and "Foreign"... in the 3rd Reich era they were all German.... So a wartime bavarian Bar may be different.... Here is an example... Wilhelm Edenhofer... His pre July 1918 bar... he commanded the 1st bavarian Jäger Brigade for the last couple of months of the war.

Very, very close to the one above, other than the Meck Schwerin instead of the friedrichs Kreuz... and notice, no sword devices!

[GdC26]

4 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Hi, I think there is a turning point... lets not forget... during the war, fot bavarians... Prussian, Saxon etx were considered "Foreign" awards... if you look at the entries above, there are "bavarian" and "Foreign"... in the 3rd Reich era they were all German.... So a wartime bavarian Bar may be different.... Here is an example... Wilhelm Edenhofer... His pre July 1918 bar... he commanded the 1st bavarian Jäger Brigade for the last couple of months of the war.

Very, very close to the one above, other than the Meck Schwerin instead of the friedrichs Kreuz... and notice, no sword devices!

I might be wrong, but I thought I had understood that turning point to be 1933. Up to then, imperial precedence prevailed, thereafter, different rules applied, with for example the EK II taking precedence over the MvK. The medlar shown by Laurentius is clearly post 1933 (Hindenburg Kreuz and two post 1933 DAK's), the one shown by Chris, as per his comments, clearly pre 1933.

But the Bavarian order of precedence is not always that clear to me either - below are a few pre war old style ribbon bars that seem to underline that point (Luitpold before PROA and PKO, and these again before BDAK .... ?)  

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by GdC26

[GdC26]

And the ÖMVK III is missing - should go in last place.

On 01/06/2020 at 11:42, Claudio said:

Hi Chris,

Since I cannot send you the image by PM, I'm posting here an image how it could have looked like.

Is that correct?

Cordially

C

 

Something like this:

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by GdC26

[laurentius]

5 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

no sword devices

To use devices was often a choice made by the owner, not something which was regulated.

 

5 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

So a wartime bavarian Bar may be different

There were lots of differences between the post-1933 regulations (which were basically an amendment of the Prussian regulations) and the Bavarian wartime regulations. Rick L used to have a list of Bavarian precedence on WAF, which I sadly cannot find at the moment, however, Wartime awards, even from different states, had precedence over peacetime awards from their own state. The problem with ribbonbars and medalbars in general is that one can usually find an example of every possible combination one can think of.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[chuck]

Something I copied of GMIC that covers various state award regulations

Imperial German Award Regulations.doc