Himmler And The Hindenburg Cross

[gjw]

Hey all, my son and I were discussing if Himmler would have been eligible for the Hindenburg Cross.

 

As he was an Officer Candidate while the war was still going on, wouldn't he  be eligible for the Cross without Swords as he saw no Frontline service?

 

Your thoughts please.

 

Best Regards 

 

Greg

Edited December 10, 2023 by gjw

[Philip.S]

Greg,

 

I am in no way an expert (or even vaguely intellectual) when it comes to German militaria, etc, but I don't see why he wouldn't be, though I'm sure he would refrain from wearing it after joining the NSDAP.

 

Regards,

 

Philip.S

[gjw]

Thanks Phil, I  personally think he would wear it.  Many high profile Nazis did wear it.  I would think he'd (Himmler) would like be seen wearing it.  Saying, that he also served during the war.  Just my opinion.

 

Best Regards 

 

Greg

[Philip.S]

Greg,

 

To my knowledge (please do correct me if I'm wrong) the NSDAP were not particularly fond of the Weimar republic, and they used the failures of that government to make themselves look good. I don't see why any NSDAP member (a Reichswehr, or Wehrmacht officer, yes, I can imagine that) wearing any Weimar awards, no? 

Do you know whether or not he did, in fact wear it?

 

Regards,

 

Philip.S

 

 

[Komtur]

11 minutes ago, Philip.S said:

... wearing any Weimar awards ...

 

Created in 1934 I believe this decoration can´t be referred in that way.

 

Regards, Komtur.

[Philip.S]

Komtur,

 

6 minutes ago, Komtur said:

Created in 1934

I'm awfully sorry! That was a basic fact, I should've known! 

Thank you for bringing my attention for this, it's greatly appreciated.

In this case, yes, I see no reason why Himmler wouldn't wear it.

 

Again, deeply sorry for my ignorance

 

Philip.S

[gjw]

Here's a couple pictures of the HC being worn by Ribbentrop and SA Chief Schepmann

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by gjw

[Stogieman]

Interesting question, aren’t there numerous photos of him in uniform on the web?

[gjw]

I've never seen a HC on either his ribbon or medal bar.

 

If there is photos of him and a HC, would love to see them

 

Best Regards 

 

Greg

[Stogieman]

Here’s one with a ribbon bar

[gjw]

And no HC.  

[VtwinVince]

I can confirm that Himmler was not awarded the FKE, and he would certainly have applied for one had he been eligible.

[Claudio]

This is Reichsheini's medal bar... I don't know which collection it's in today, but it's out there somewhere in private hands. As you can see there is no Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer on that bar. But I think H would have been entitled at least to wear the Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer (non combatants) since he was an officer candidate since January 1918.

 

 

See also: Ailsby collection
 

The Medal bar belonging to Heinrich Himmler  - Reichsführer-SS u. Chef der Deutschen Polizei. consisting of the 12 Year SS Long Service cross, 15 Year NSDAP Long Service cross, 10 Year NSDAP Long Service cross, Occupation of Austria, Occupation of Czechoslovakia with "Prague Castle" bar, Occupation of Memal, and West Wall madals. The medal bar in the original presentation case was found on 2nd May 1945 by men of Company E, 22nd Infantry Regiment of the US Army, at Himmler's summer home at Gmund, Tergensee. Protective case may be more appropriate as it was most probably constructed specifically for this bar when it was produced by the jeweler at Himmler's direction.

 

The case measures approximately 21 cm by 15.5 cm. It is covered  with a blue simulated leather, and is secured by two hinged clasps. The interior of the lid is white satin bearing the logo "T. Reiman Berlin W. Friedrichstr. 188". The bottom of the case is dark blue velvet, and is slotted to receive the medal bar and ribbon bar.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Claudio

[Stogieman]

Wow Claudio! Great information and history! Thanks!

[BlackcowboyBS]

I have never seen Himmler with the HC and I am pretty sure, that he didn't own one. But how about Göring? He should have one.

[Claudio]

Here’s Göring’s medal bar (Photo courtesy RAF Museum).

Edited December 19, 2023 by Claudio

[VtwinVince]

Funnily enough, he wasn't entitled to the Eichenlaub for the OZL.

[Claudio]

17 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:

Funnily enough, he wasn't entitled to the Eichenlaub for the OZL.

True! He wasn’t even an Oberleutnant when he got the OZL with Eichenlaub…

 

Decorations & Awards:
- Pour le mérite: am 02.06.1918 als Oberleutnant und Führer der Jagdstaffel 27
- Grosskreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes: am 19.07.1940 als Generalfeldmarschall und Reichsminister der Luftfahrt u. Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe
- Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes: am 30.09.1939 als Generalfeldmarschall und Reichsminister der Luftfahrt und Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe (Aushändigung des Ritterkreuzes durch Adolf Hitler)
- Ritterkreuz des kgl. Preuss. Hausordens von Hohenzollern mit Schwertern: 20.10.1917
- 1914 Eisernes Kreuz II. Klasse: 15.09.1914
- 1914 Eisernes Kreuz I. Klasse: 22.03.1915
- Ritterkreuz II Klasse des Grossherzoglich Badischen Ordens vom Zähringer Löwen mit Schwertern: 08.07.1915
- “Ehrenbecher für den Sieger in Luftkampf”: 15.04.1916
- Ritterkreuz des Grossherzoglich Badischen Militär Karl-Friedrich-Verdienstordens: 20.10.1917
- Kgl. Preuss. Flugzeugbeobachter-Abzeichen: 15.11.1914
- Kgl. Preuss. Flugzeugführer-Abzeichen: 12.10.1915
- Verwundetenabzeichen, 1918 in Schwarz
- Türkischer Eiserner Halbmond
- Blutorden der NSDAP (ohne Nr.): 09.11.1933
- Goldenes Ehrenzeichen der NSDAP: 01.12.1933
- Grosskreuz des Kgl. Italien. Militärordens von Savoyen
- Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Roten Kreuzes, Halskreuz mit Bruststern, Sonderstufe
- Großkreuz des Herzoglich Sachsen-Ernestinischen Hausordens (2. Modell)
- Fliegerschaftsabzeichen (19.01.1935 von Göring gestiftet)
- gemeinsames Flugzeugführer- und Beobachterabzeichen in Gold mit Brillanten, sog. Luftwaffen-“Doppelabzeichen“ (Stifter und erster Träger dieser ad personam ehrenhalber verliehenen Auszeichnung)
- Luftwaffen-Ärmelband “Jagdgeschwader Frhr. v. Richthofen Nr. 1 1917/1918“ gestiftet und am rechten Arm angelegt: 00.10.1935
- Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer
- Gauehrenzeichen ”Silberner Gauadler” des Gaues Thüringen der NSDAP: 20.04.1937
- Goldenes Gauehrenzeichen des Gaues Berlin der NSDAP
- Luftschutz-Ehrenzeichen 1. Stufe: 20.04.1938
- Großkreuz des Danebrog-Ordens mit den Insignien in Diamanten und der zum Großkreuz gehörenden Ordenskette (höchster dänischer Orden): 06.08.1938
- Großkreuz des Kgl. Ital. Ordens vom Heiligen Mauritius und Lazzarus: 00.00.1938
- Großkreuz des Kgl. Schwed. Schwerterordens mit Kette: 02.02.1939
- Wehrmacht-Dienstauszeichnung IV. Klasse
- Spange zum Eisernen Kreuz II. Klasse: 00.09.1939
- Spange zum Eisernen Kreuz I. Klasse: 00.09.1939
- Kreuz von Danzig II. und I. Klasse: 00.10.1939
- Große Ordenskette des Annunziatenordens (Kgl. Orden der Heiligen Verkündigung von Italien): 22.05.1940
- Orden vom Joch und den Pfeilen, höchste Stufe (Imperial del Yugo y las Flechas de España , Spanien)
- Kgl. Rumän. Orden “Michael der Tapfere” Orden “Michael der Tapfere“ III., II. und I. Klasse: 21.10.1941
- Großkreuz des Militärordens von Savoyen mit Stern und Schulterband: 27.11.1941
- Grosskreuz des finnischen Freiheitskreuzes mit Schwertern: 25.03.1942
- Großkreuz des Kaiserl. Japan. Palowina-Ordens: 29.09.1943
- Slowakisches Kriegssiegerkreuz I Klasse
- Komturkreuz des Kgl. Rumän. Ordens Aeronautische Tugend mit der Kriegsdekoration und Schwertern
- Grosskreuz des finnischen Löwenordens mit Schwertern
- Grosskreuz des Ordens der Finnischen Weissen Rose mit Schwertern
- 1 Schwert des japanischen nationalen Verbandes Shochoku Seishin Shinkokai
- Grosskreuz des Kgl. Italien. Ordens des Sterns
- U-Bootkriegsabzeichen, 1939 mit Brillanten
- Kgl. Rumän. Flugzeugführer-Abzeichen

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Claudio

[Claudio]

Table 5-1: Awards of the Order of the Zähringer Lion with Swords in WW1 

from volume VI The Aviation Awards of the Gran Duchies of Baden and Oldenburg, page 117.

 

page 166:

 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Claudio

[VtwinVince]

Thanks Claudio, you have to wonder if this was an 'honest mistake'.

[webr55]

I guess this has been discussed before, but still: Did Göring really wear two Luftwaffe long service crosses instead of two medals? Is there any photo that shows him wearing this medal bar? It would belong in our "Mistakes in Wear" thread. 

(Certainly, crosses look much fancier.) 

[Claudio]

Earlier in the 20ies G wore the ZLO without Eichenlaub, later he had upgraded it… I think that nobody had the courage to point that out to him.

[922F]

See https://www.omsa.org/files/download.php?file=JOMSA_Vol29_4.pdf&stream=true&year=1978 for article "THE ODESSEY OF HIMMLER’S MEDALS" describing Himmler's bar transition to war booty as well as 'the' document for Himmler's 12 year SS Long Service award. 

[dond]

Perhaps Himmler didn't wear a Hindy because it lacked Swords, a continuous reminder that he saw no frontline service.

[ostprussenmann_new]

It is an interesting topic- especially with Goring and Himmler.  Heck Hitler only wore his EKI and Wound badge even though he was entitled to various Bavarian awards and The HC.