laurentius Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Dear fellow collectors I recently bought this piece, an Austrian Military Merit Cross 3rd class by Friedrich Rothe from vienna. I had been looking for a piece like this so when it came along for a rather good price I didn't hesitate for a single moment. Another extra on this piece was the miniature of the 1.st class on the trifold, which looks very nice and detailed. After talking to several austrian WW1 collectors one of them told me this piece could be from the former Fattovich collection from Venice and that it might be featered in Mericka's book "Orden und Ehrenzeichen der Oesterreichisch-Ungarischen Monarchie". I personally do not own this book and I wondered if any of the austrian collectors might have some pictures for me? All help would be greatly appreciated. I will attach a file with the picture of my Austrian MCC. Kind regards and thanks in advance, Laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper_D Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 This is a lovely looking cross, Laurentius. Might we see the reverse, as well, please? Do you know what the purpose of the miniature on the trifold was? If the holder also had the First Class award, would he not only wear that? I hope that you have success in your for pictures from Mericka's book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentius Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) Dear Trooper_D As soon as I get home I will take some pictures of the back. The purpose of the miniature shows that one has a higher grade of the order without wearing it. For example at the front officers would only wear a few medals, opposed to the vienna ball. If you only wear 2 or 3 medals you have to show people you also received higher grades, which was done with little devices like these. Another reason might be that an officer could get wounded resulting in damage to a medal, if a medal is damaged you can't wear it anymore. A cross 3rd class with a miniature are cheaper to replace than a cross 1st class. Small devices are not limited to this order, or even limited to the Austro-Hungarian empire. Examples of these small miniatures can also be found on the hungarian order of St.Stephen and the order of the Iron Crown. I have also seen examples of german ribbonbars with miniatures of the grandcrosses or of the commanderscrosses. I will attach a few examples for you. Kind regards, Laurentius Edited January 27, 2018 by laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper_D Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 3 hours ago, laurentius said: As soon as I get home I will take some pictures of the back. The purpose of the miniature shows that one has a higher grade of the order without wearing it. For example at the front officers would only wear a few medals, opposed to the vienna ball. If you only wear 2 or 3 medals you have to show people you also received higher grades, which was done with little devices like these. Another reason might be that an officer could get wounded resulting in damage to a medal, if a medal is damaged you can't wear it anymore. A cross 3rd class with a miniature are cheaper to replace than a cross 1st class. Small devices are not limited to this order, or even limited to the Austro-Hungarian empire. Examples of these small miniatures can also be found on the hungarian order of St.Stephen and the order of the Iron Crown. I have also seen examples of german ribbonbars with miniatures of the grandcrosses or of the commanderscrosses. I will attach a few examples for you. Thank you for this useful clarification of purpose behind this practice, Laurentius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1812 Overture Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 On 27/01/2018 at 21:29, Trooper_D said: This is a lovely looking cross, Laurentius. Might we see the reverse, as well, please? Do you know what the purpose of the miniature on the trifold was? If the holder also had the First Class award, would he not only wear that? I hope that you have success in your for pictures from Mericka's book. Please look carefully! This photo is very rare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Lang Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Hello, I'm on holydays abroad, and no chance to reach my copy of Mericka's book "Orden und Ehrenzeichen der Oesterreichisch-Ungarischen Monarchie", Wien, Schroll, 1974, until late in the next week. From what I see, there could be good chances that it could be a piece coming from the auction of the Fattovich collection, taken in Turin in June 2015. Perhaps, the auction catalogues could still be seen online. It's always a good occasion, to remember the Venetian collector; a true old-style gentleman, with a deep knowledge in the field of Imperial Austrian phaleristic. A curious note: also his wife, was a passionate collector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian1962 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 As you can see the miniature star of the grand cross is mounted on the knights cross of FJO which is part of his medal bar. The owner could not change that when wearing the breast star. It is evident that the breast star was just worn for the purpose for taking the pic. Not really correct but no problem at all. Regards Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Lang Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 A mistake that surely wouldn't have been done by an Austrian officer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1812 Overture Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 霍尔蒂表示不服 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurentius Posted August 27, 2018 Author Share Posted August 27, 2018 Dear fellow collectors I am happy that this thread has been revived, as it is in my opinion a most interesting one. Regarding the picture supplied by 1812, it shows miklós horty, regent of the kingdom of Hungary with the military merit cross 3rd class with a miniature, however, this is not a miniature for the cross 1st class like mine, but rather a miniature for the cross 2nd class which Horty received. I think that Horty's collar is blocking out the part with the enameled ribbon, as seen in the picture posted here below. Kind regards, laurentius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tifes Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Dear colleges, reason behind introduction of small decorations was really practical one. On the field uniform it was just much more comfortable to have all awards on one medals bar and not to wear one or more breast stars or neck decorations which would complicate everyday life of high-ranked generals in the field. First small decorations were introduced already in 1908 but only for highest grades of all principal orders except MMTO - StSO, LO, EKO and FJO. During the course of the WWI lower grades of these orders had been introduced too, some already in October 1917, some only in t1918. And here it comes...small decorations for MVK II. Class and I. Class (all variants) were introduced only on 24. April 1918. That was at very late stage and vast majority of all small decorations for MVK II. Class, not even talking about MVK I. Class are just post-1918 production. MVK I. Class with KD (with or without swords) was awarded just 78 times (both Emperors - FJI and Karl I included) and approximately half of this number went to foreign dignitaries as courtesy decoration (German, Bulgarian and Ottoman highest ranked officers, princes, pashas). Concerning A-H army we are talking about field marshals and colonel generals only. Full general was to little to get this award as only Grand Cross of MMTO was superior decoration, ranking just one grade above MVK I. Class. It goes without saying that even this small decoration of MVK I. Class in original would be extremely rare and I have never had a chance to see original wartime piece in my life. However I can´t judge from one picture and some close-up image would tell us more. BTW all small decorations of MVK I and II Class sold at late Prof. Fattovich auction in June 2015 were post-1918 productions. Regards, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1812 Overture Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 15 hours ago, tifes said: Dear colleges, reason behind introduction of small decorations was really practical one. On the field uniform it was just much more comfortable to have all awards on one medals bar and not to wear one or more breast stars or neck decorations which would complicate everyday life of high-ranked generals in the field. First small decorations were introduced already in 1908 but only for highest grades of all principal orders except MMTO - StSO, LO, EKO and FJO. During the course of the WWI lower grades of these orders had been introduced too, some already in October 1917, some only in t1918. And here it comes...small decorations for MVK II. Class and I. Class (all variants) were introduced only on 24. April 1918. That was at very late stage and vast majority of all small decorations for MVK II. Class, not even talking about MVK I. Class are just post-1918 production. MVK I. Class with KD (with or without swords) was awarded just 78 times (both Emperors - FJI and Karl I included) and approximately half of this number went to foreign dignitaries as courtesy decoration (German, Bulgarian and Ottoman highest ranked officers, princes, pashas). Concerning A-H army we are talking about field marshals and colonel generals only. Full general was to little to get this award as only Grand Cross of MMTO was superior decoration, ranking just one grade above MVK I. Class. It goes without saying that even this small decoration of MVK I. Class in original would be extremely rare and I have never had a chance to see original wartime piece in my life. However I can´t judge from one picture and some close-up image would tell us more. BTW all small decorations of MVK I and II Class sold at late Prof. Fattovich auction in June 2015 were post-1918 productions. Regards, Tom 你说的很对 Show you an interesting photo of this person wearing two levels of mini Leopold Medal、 Other variants, different countries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex K Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 interesting image (The first one posted by 1812 Overture), anyone know who he is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utgardloki Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 If you mean the last post, i think it's Feldmarschallleutnant Paul Edler von Nagy at the MMThO Promotion at Villa Wartholz 17th of August 1918. This is his entry in the 1918 Rangliste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex K Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Hi Yes I did mean that photo, thanks for the name, I'll do a bit more research regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayern Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 12 hours ago, Utgardloki said: If you mean the last post, i think it's Feldmarschallleutnant Paul Edler von Nagy at the MMThO Promotion at Villa Wartholz 17th of August 1918. This is his entry in the 1918 Rangliste Curious uniform that of von Nagy , first the narrow lace of his collar patch , second the badge between cockade and button on his cap or kepi, looks like a Bergfuhrer one 12 hours ago, Utgardloki said: If you mean the last post, i think it's Feldmarschallleutnant Paul Edler von Nagy at the MMThO Promotion at Villa Wartholz 17th of August 1918. This is his entry in the 1918 Rangliste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1812 Overture Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 On 01/09/2018 at 12:11, Alex K said: interesting image (The first one posted by 1812 Overture), anyone know who he is? 上学期间不好好学习英语的代价就是，有时我完全看不懂你们说的是什么。。靠翻译软件也不理解 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1812 Overture Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 两个级别的利奥波德勋章 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Thronstahl Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 1 hour ago, 1812 Overture said: 上学期间不好好学习英语的代价就是，有时我完全看不懂你们说的是什么。。靠翻译软件也不理解 Do you know the name of the book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1812 Overture Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Von Thronstahl said: Do you know the name of the book? 当然知道，这是我买的，等明天告诉你吧，我要休息了 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utgardloki Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) If you allow me to answer for you 1812, "Österreichs Orden und Ehrenzeichen" von Dr. M. Christian Ortner und Dr. Georg Ludwigstorff Or the english version "Austrian Orders and Decorations" Ortner is the director of the Heeresgeschichtles Museum in Vienna. It's an excelent book! A must have for anyone interested in Austrian orders. Edited September 2, 2018 by Utgardloki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Thronstahl Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Utgardloki said: If you allow me to answer for you 1812, "Österreichs Orden und Ehrenzeichen" von Dr. M. Christian Ortner und Dr. Georg Ludwigstorff Or the english version "Austrian Orders and Decorations" Ortner is the director of the Heeresgeschichtles Museum in Vienna. It's an excelent book! A must have for anyone interested in Austrian orders. Now I remmember. It is a 2 book edition from Militaria Verlag. Thnk you for your help Utgardloki. Edited September 2, 2018 by Von Thronstahl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1812 Overture Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 19 hours ago, Von Thronstahl said: Now I remmember. It is a 2 book edition from Militaria Verlag. Thnk you for your help Utgardloki. This book is really great! But it is also very heavy! The freight cost me 80 euros, and there is still no single number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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