laurentius

I agree with Sascha here. Although both these orders have a star as a medaillon (which can be rather difficult with unclear photographs), there is still the ribbon. I do not believe the ribbon on the second medal to be red. In my opinion, it is white, which would point to a decoration from Waldeck. Kind regards, Laurentius

Dave, Sascha and Daniel, I'd like to thank you for your input. I have however a question. Dave said the guess was that there were around 1720 awards in 1918. isn't that a bit low? That would mean it is the lowest year except for 1914 (which was only 4 months). Isn't 1918 usually the year in which awards were most often given out? Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius

Dear P.F. The vertical piece of metal keeps pressure on the pin, to assure it doesn't open, this would cause the medalbar to fall off. We usually see this with pre-war bars. Nice touch. Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear Dave, perhaps the catholics were willing to look past his religion. They might have done this more often, if I recall correctly they were one of the pay-to-wear orders. You paid money which was used for red cross purposes and you received a decoration. Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear Chuck, thanks for your help, the website says 11,000 pieces were awarded, but I'd like to have some confirmation from actual literature, since the site is often mistaken. It beats wikipedia for sure, but it isn't as good as referencebooks. Kind regards, Laurentius

Here is an example from the Dutch Palace 'Het Loo' , one of the largest phaleristic museums of europe. The Ludwigsorden with garter belonged to Ludwig III of Hesse-Darmstadt (1806-1877). The star was made by Martinus Schnitzspahn between 1865 and 1877. Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear fellow collectors, I have recently taken a great interest in Saxon orders, and I have been able to acquire several, but there is one thing that I'm still not sure about. When reading literature I sometimes come across numbers that say there were roughly 11,000 awards of the Albrechtsorden 2nd class, whereas others say there were only around 7700 Albrechtsorden 2nd class with swords, plus around 1500 without swords. Is there someone who can give me a clear number or estimate? Kind regards, Laurentius

Georg Alexander von Müller perhaps?

Dear CCJ, I agree that the loops on the left side are for the Iron Crescent. The horizontal loops on the right side are for a medal/ribbonbar which can be filled by any piece which is appropriate for the rank. Talking about rank, I don't have a great view of the shoulderboards but I think it is a colonel if my eyes do not deceive me, this would allow for some lovely steckkreuzen together with an EK1 on the lower right side. Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear Andreas, I do not have enough experience with Dutch medals (despite being Dutch), so I don't know if this man's career has been written down anywhere. That being said, there have been dozens of Germans serving in the Dutch East-Indies both before and after WW1. I have seen several pictures and medalbars, plus atleast one frackspange of German veterans. I think one of the Dutch collectors here has a frackspange with an EK2 and Military Order of William Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear Wessel Gordon, regardless of how interesting the discussion about the various colours of the replica Pour le Mérite is, I think it wise to contain this thread to the unsolvable medalbar in VtwinVince's collection. Kind regards, Laurentius

I wonder how many field grade officers actually got a PLM with oakleaves, since they were only given to officers (usually generals) who had succesfully won a battle. This was also the reason Manfred von Richthofen couldn't receive the oakleaves, hence he was given the RAO3xKR. Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear Dave, thank you, for your explanation is the perfect one for this subject, namely that assumptions can often not be made with certainty. I love how you used medalbars from your own collection to support your argument. Lovely pieces. Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear fellow collectors, as every collector does I keep a keen eye out for anything that might fit well within my collection. Having surfed the internet for medalbars, pictures and decorations for a few years now I have noticed that it has become en vogue for dealers to give stories to medalbars. To be clear, these medalbars have not been identified, and they rarely have any form of provenence. This is ofcourse done solely to increase the value of the piece and the prestige of the dealer. For example, let's say we have a medalbar for sale of a junior officer, nothing too exciting, let's say an EK2, HH, ÖMVK medalbar. A dealer might now be inclined to say that this medalbar MUST have belonged to a junior officer who fought on the Eastern/Italian/Balkan front, for that is the place where the Austrians were. But this isn't true, we know that there were atleast two moments at which Austrians were present at the Western front (Early in 1914 with the Skoda guns and in 1918 at the end of the war). Other medals of which some dealers claim (for not all dealers do this, only some) are the Hungarian 'Pro Deo et Patria' and the Bulgarian Medal for WW1. If any of these medals are on a medalbar it is in there eyes clear evidence that this piece must have belonged to someone who served on the Eastern/Balkan front. But aren't these medals just decorations you apply for, the only requirement being having served during WW1? I know this topic is about non-German decorations so the Imperial section might not be too well-suited for it, however it is about decorations on German medalbars. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter. Kind regards, Laurentius

Dear VtwinVince, would you happen to have some pictures of the restored medalbar? Kind regards, Laurentius

I agree here with Nicolas, we can see that the fourth ribbon has been fashioned for a decoration with the general size equal to an EK, which would in my opinion pount to a HE3x rather than a HoH. Kind regards, Laurentius

That's a lovely bar, I especially love the Orden Heinrich des Löwens

So that's were that lovely frackschnalle from Sascha Wöschler went Lovely example for your collection

Dear Scottplen, this is a bad bar, even with the mediocre pictures you can see the terrible quality of the ribbon and of the sowing on the back. I hope a collector of Austrian awards can join in, it wouldn't surprise me if a number of the decorations also turn out to be fake. Kind regards, Laurentius

Thanks for your help Nicolas. Assuming he has received the silver version of the medal (due to his rank) he would be one of only 300 recipients. That's lovely news. I initially bought the picture because of the fact that he is a WW2 officer wearing a House Order from WW1, but this medal makes it even more interesting. Kind regards, Laurentius

Thanks for your help Lilnuke. Here is a picture of the Oberst

Dear fellow forumites, I was lucky today and I managed to buy a lovely photograph of a German Oberst (colonel) from 1940, I will post it in this thread once I'm able to make a proper picture. He is wearing a medalbar with a EK2, HE3x, FEK, and an unknown medal (for the moment, I will dive in to find out what it is). I was wondering how many Princely House Orders of Hohenzollern 3rd class with swords were awarded during the first world war, would anyone be able to help me with this? Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius

Dear Great Dane, The swords on the ring do signify he had a lower class of the order with swords ( in your case a 4th class). When there is a distinction like this with an officer (a peace-time and a war-time decoration) than two decorations are allowed to be worn. If your man had been a civilian, only receiving all his decorations without swords he would only be allowed to wear one. The reason why the Almanach printed both classes received is to avoid confusion. If someone gets a Crown Order 2nd class with swords on the ring he might have received a 3rd class with swords, or a 4th class with swords. Kind regards, Laurentius

Maybe he liked the eagle better, seems to be a recurring theme in Germany in those days?

Is it not possible perhaps, that he chose only to wear his German pre-war awards? All of his peacetime awards are German, whilst I can imagine that an up-and-coming colonel as himself, often praised for his work gathered quite an amount of awards. Maybe he had to make some tough calls and left several awards of his ribbonbar. Highly decorated men like Ludendorff always had to watch out not to wear ribbonbars which are too long, like Ludwig Beck in this picture. Kind regards, Laurentius