1870 Non Combatant Iron Cross Officer's Medal Bar

[Paul L Murphy]

This is a group that has been in my collection for a few years (I purchased it in August 2000 at FJP). It comprises the following : -

1870 IRON CROSS 2ND CLASS WITH 25 YEAR OAKLEAF ON NON COMBATANT RIBBON;

HOHENZOLLERN HOUSE ORDER KNIGHTS BADGE IN GILT;

RED EAGLE ORDER 3RD CLASS WITH CROWN IN GILT;

PRUSSIAN ORDER OF THE CROWN 3RD CLASS;

PRUSSIAN ORDER OF THE CROWN 4TH CLASS ON GENEVA CROSS RIBBON (cross missing from order);

1870 WAR MEDAL FOR NON COMBATANTS;

CENTENARY MEDAL;

SAXONY ERNESTINE HOUSE ORDER KNIGHT FIRST CLASS IN GILT;

SAXONY ALBERT ORDER JEWELER MADE KNIGHT SECOND CLASS;

OLDENBURG HOUSE AND MERIT ORDER OF DUKE PETER FRIEDRICH LUDWIG KNIGHT SECOND CLASS WITH SILVER CROWN

I am pretty sure that this should be researchable for the specialists among you and would really appreciate your help in putting a name to the bar. I assume he was a medical officer but beyond that I am clueless.

I have added scans of the obverse and reverse. It is by far the nicest Imperial German piece that I have in my humble collection and any help that you can give would be appreciated. I can reciprocate with help on Japanese or Irish items (or beers and vodka if you are passing through Moscow !).

Regards,

Paul Murphy

Edited August 28, 2006 by Paul L Murphy

[Paul R]

Now that is a bar I would sell some TR stuff for! I LOVE NC Bars! Yours is the best I have ever seen. Maybe someone here can help you get an ID?

[Ed_Haynes]

That is lovely, Paul!

[Claudio]

Wow! That is quite a wonderful Nichtk?mpfer medal bar! That is one of the most beautiful Franco-Prussian non combattant bar I have ever seen. I am jelous...

ciao,

Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

This medal bar was featured in the BDOS's "Orden & Militaria Journal" issue of December 1976, in an article by Willi Geile "Spangen berichten."

And no, he couldn't figure it out either.

Medical officer THEN most likely and one of the odd ones who advanced steadily in nominal rank but-- no long service award whatsoever. If he was a Prussian, he would have the Red Eagle 3 (and with Crown, wowee!!!) "on bow" and there is no bow here. I looked in the 1890 Prussian Rank List all those 30 years ago (as my notes now tell me) and couldn't find him.

Soooooooooooooo....

have you got yourself a NON Prussian's bar, with his "home stuff" moved up and off his medal bar?

Hmmm.

[Guest Rick Research]

And here it is, from 29 years and 8 months ago. (Ricky takes the lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng view on collecting )--

[attachmentid=51749]

Neither George Seymour nor I could ever identify this guy, though we "revisited" him often over many years. My best guess is that he HAD been a medical officer, but was NOT even nominally "in Uniform" by the 1890s-- but MIGHT have been one of the Kaiser's personal "Leibarzt" types.

Eric Ludvigsen's exhaustive statistical survey of Prussian annual awards only showd 59 Red Eagle 3rd with Crown but NO bow ever made between the first one in 1892 and 1913. 1 each in 1892, 1893, 1894, 1896, and 1898 with 2 having been made in 1897. Omitted years had NO such awards. The next awards came in 1902 (2) with a gap until 1905 and then things REALLY picking up, with the rest of the awards 1905-13.

Most of those would, of course, have gone to NON Prussians.

For the same period--assuming this guy took until 1890 to hit his "peak years" professionally, non-Xs awards of the Prussian Hohenzollern House Order 3 break down as follows

1890-- 16

1891- 9

1892- 11

1893- 14

1894- 8

1895- 6

1896- 11

1897- 5

1898- 7

1899- 9

1900- 10

Most of those would have been to Guards officers and ...

people in CLOSE proximity to the Kaiser on a daily basis. If I had to guess, I'd say it would have been awarded BEFORE the REO3wC because from later Rank Lists it seems to have gone to Major-ish officers, Fl?geladjutants and so on.

There were only 1,783 awards of the Crown Order 4 with Red Cross, so it's too bad that piece is damaged.

Though are you sure that the Red CRoss HAS come off, and that is not simply a flaw in the gilding on the top arm? 458 were awrded on that ribbon WITHOUT a Red Cross.

[saschaw]

Eric Ludvigsen's exhaustive statistical survey of Prussian annual awards only showd 59 Red Eagle 3rd with Crown but NO bow ever made between the first one in 1892 and 1913.

Well, it's only about a miniature and, a bow might have been with it in former times ...

(but at least, it's made of Gold)

[derGeneral]

A really great medal bar ! I'm happy that I have the reason to see this wonderful one !

[Paul C]

Is this guy Saxon? I have the following saxon RL: 1852, 1871, 1881, 1901, 1902-07 and 1914. Would this help with the ID? I would be happy to look if I could get a little direction.

[Stogieman]

No, I rather doubt he's a Saxon.

[Stogieman]

.... and I'm surprised there's no comment on the Hohenzollern Order's ribbon?!!

[Daniel Cole]

OK Stogieman, I'll bite. Why is the HHO not on the white ribbon with 3 black stripes? Isn't that the typical ribbon with no swords?

[Stogieman]

Nope... it's on the right ribbon... BUT! How often do you actually SEE one??? Hmmmmm?? One of the rarest of the prussian awards. A no-swords Hohenzollern is very special...

[Paul L Murphy]

[Though are you sure that the Red CRoss HAS come off, and that is not simply a flaw in the gilding on the top arm? 458 were awrded on that ribbon WITHOUT a Red Cross.]

I was not aware that it could be awarded with this ribbon but without the Geneva Cross, what were the criteria for it ? It looks as if there is a patch of tarnising which I always put down to the cross having fallen of but it could be a gilding flaw as you say since it is not worn badly.

The more I hear about this bar the more interesting it appears, it is a great pity it cannot be attributed to a specific individual but the information I have been provided already is definitely worth a few litres of vodka !

Best regards,

Paul

[Paul C]

It has a blue back. Could it be a Navy bar rather then Army?

[Guest Rick Research]

Possibly. I have no Rank Lists before 1905 for the Navy though. IF he was in there, probably ? la Suite to the Sanit?tskorps.

I suspect this was a COURT uniform wear blue, like this happy writer of "mountain novels"--

[attachmentid=52033]

[Paul L Murphy]

Any views on the present market value of the group ? I have it down for insurance purposes at about US$7,000 but that may be a bit out of date (but it is not going to be for sale any time in the forseeable future).

Cheers,

Paul

[Paul L Murphy]

Well folks, those of you who like this bar will have a chance to bid on it since it will be for sale in Spink's next medal auction in July.

[VtwinVince]

That really is an incredible spange, which I would think should easily fetch 10K.

[Dave Danner]

Does anyone have the list of the 59 Red Eagle 3rd Classes with Crown without Bow from Eric Ludvigsen's work?

[arb]

Dave,

They were awarded between 1892 and 1912:

1892-1

1893-1

1894-1

1895-0

1896-1

1897-2

1898-1

1899-0

1900-0

1901-0

1902-2

1903-0

1904-0

1905-5

1906-4

1907-2

1908-2

1909-10

1910-12

1911-6

1912-9

Andy

[saschaw]

Does anyone have the list of the 59 Red Eagle 3rd Classes with Crown without Bow from Eric Ludvigsen's work?

I'm not sure if the wearer is one of those 59.

It is extremely unlikely for a Prussian (unless he's a Prince, which he is not!) to get the RAO3Kr. More likely is there's missing a bow (maybe never mounted).

[Komtur]

I'm not sure if the wearer is one of those 59.

It is extremely unlikely for a Prussian (unless he's a Prince, which he is not!) to get the RAO3Kr. More likely is there's missing a bow (maybe never mounted).

I absolutly agree with you, Sascha. Beside this, it must be possible to identificate the owner by the Prussian Ordenslisten. It is only a question of time ...

Regards, Komtur.

[Paul C]

I absolutly agree with you, Sascha. Beside this, it must be possible to identificate the owner by the Prussian Ordenslisten. It is only a question of time ...

Regards, Komtur.

Agreed!

[Gary B]

A beautiful bar.  I wonder if any new information has come to light in the past 10 years on who the recipient might be.

 

Gary B