New German Imperial medal bar

[militaria0815]

Winner was an Army captain.

[Deruelle]

Terrific medal bar. Do you know the owner ? Did he belong to Bavarian Leib Regiment

Christophe

[militaria0815]

Terrific medal bar. Do you know the owner ? Did he belong to Bavarian Leib Regiment

Christophe

The owner was Rittmeister Hermann M?ller (later Major a.D. Dr. M?ller-Brand), adjutant of Bavarian Crown prince Rupprecht in the Prussian 4th Army corps.

[saschaw]

Sorry, no more words to say ...

But, what's the last thing, please? Something Spanish, or Romanian?!

[webr55]

The owner was Rittmeister Hermann M?ller (later Major a.D. Dr. M?ller-Brand), adjutant of Bavarian Crown prince Rupprecht in the Prussian 4th Army corps.

So that's why he put the Rupprecht medal first, of all things!

Very impressive bar!

[webr55]

And did you notice the precedence he mounted his non-Bavarian awards? With the exception of the EK, of course, they are in ALPHABETICAL order of the states!!

[militaria0815]

And did you notice the precedence he mounted his non-Bavarian awards? With the exception of the EK, of course, they are in ALPHABETICAL order of the states!!

The last medal is the Spanish medal for MARRUECOS with the bar MELILLA. According to my information there was only one Bavarian officer who owned this medal, it was Oberleutnant Frauenholz, who was in Marokko together with M?ller, but this was unofficial, he had asked for some weeks off, this was granted and he was permitted to wear his Bavarian uniform.

[Jacky]

fabulous medal bar,

is it yours???

Wonder how much this would weigh.

Perhaps was it his royal connection which helped him to obtain so much gongs to go with...

As he was almost always in the neighbourhood when his royals exchanged medals, he might have caught his own bit of the ODM-rain

[Paul R]

I am wondering the number he would have added during the WW2 era?

[militaria0815]

fabulous medal bar,

is it yours???

Wonder how much this would weigh.

Perhaps was it his royal connection which helped him to obtain so much gongs to go with...

As he was almost always in the neighbourhood when his royals exchanged medals, he might have caught his own bit of the ODM-rain

Thank God its mine!! If I saw it an it was not I would get crazy!!!

It is so heavy that it needs 2 pins on back.

Edited July 3, 2007 by militaria0815

[Jacky]

Could you weigh it for us??

[militaria0815]

Could you weigh it for us??

It weighs 500 Gramm!!!!!

[militaria0815]

I am wondering the number he would have added during the WW2 era?

Most probably not much more as there was one state only which gave awards. Maybe the German cross in silver.

[Jacky]

Well, the german cross in silver wasn't a medal but a breast star, thus wouldn't have changed his bar,

maybe some air-raid medals as he would have been on pensioned list by then?

Further also a kriegsverdienstkreuz, an extra EK wouldn't be possible, only a spangen to his EK.

Thus he might have added 2 medals to his bar, very very slight chance that he might be able to earn/get some awards from romania or italia.

kind regards,

Jacky

[Yankee]

You gotta that bend in the bar, for sure only massive orginals can do that.

Great stuff

[ccj]

Holy Cow!!

Can you show more images of the awards?

[Komtur]

It weighs 500 Gramm!!!!!

What a brave man to carry this burden

[Guest Rick Research]

Note the "S" hilts on the Ernestines. Now the PAIR is odd. We know that if two of the three Duchies gave these out separately, sometimes they could wear two DIFFERENT classes together.

But on the rolls there are two entries for his Saxe Ernestine Knight 1st Class with Xs--

from Altenburg 15 July 1915 and from Coburg 14 December 1916.

No entry for him with a Knight 2nd X.

This is where having a PHOTOGRAPH of him WEARING a slightly earlier version of the medal bar shows that he WORE it with TWO Ernestines with swords and so I will CORRECT the roll comment that I was going to have published that his "double" entries were an error. He DID get... TWO of them!!!!

Is the photo clear enough to make out the odd style sword hilts, too?

I think at some time in the past, somebody replaced that SECOND "HSH3aX" because he also had-- quite incorrectly, but this is indeed how the awards went through, a peacetime Saxon Albert Order-Knight 1st Class (Bavarian Personal Nachrichten issue of 24 May 1914) and that is what shows on the photo, but what is on the bar is a SA3b. Perhaps those two awards were chipped and somebody "fixed" the bar by replacements which aren't correct.

Other Personal Nachrichten gazette dates for his awards were

Anhalt Friedrich Cross gazetted in the PN issue of 21.8.15

Baden Z?hringen Lion Knight 2nd with Oakleaves and Xs issue of 21.8.15 (actually awarded on 23.7.15)

Brunswick Ernst August Cross issue of 16.3.15

Bremen Hanseatic Cross issue of 25.10.16

Hamburg Hanseatic issue of 2.5.16 (this is another Roll that is "out there" for transcription)

Lippe Detmold War Honor Cross issue of 27.5.16

Saxon Albert Order Knight 1st with Xs issue of 21.8.15, actual award date 3.2.15 and it WAS awarded to him as a complete "SA3aX" and not the correct "Xs to SA3a" which he had earlier received (as noted above, before the war)

W?rttemberg Friedrich Order Knight 1st X issue of 17.12.14

Austro-Hungarian Military Merit CRoss 3rd Class with War Decoration issue of 10.11.17

and a Turkish War Medal star aka Iron Half Moon in the PN issue of 12.5.17

This is the most spectacular group to a Mere Mortal I have seen in decades. Congratulations!

[militaria0815]

Details:

[militaria0815]

Details:

[militaria0815]

Details:

[militaria0815]

Details:

I will hopefully get a copy of his personal file from the archive and will post it when I got it.

[922F]

Truly a magnificant bar! If by odd sword hilts, you mean the "S" type Ernestines, these are so-called "Paris-style". The major EHO reference states that 2 dutchies used these hilts and the third used a more typical Prussian or Saxony style hilt. Controversy on this topic exists. The BDOS Journal has extensive discussion of this point. Unfortunately I am traveling now and cannot provide more details or cites for this information.

[Guest Rick Research]

I'd think it is far and away the OTHER way, since the "Roman" hilts are most commonly seen in WW1 groups.

Terrific 1918 photo (he got the Crown to his BMV4X on 4.1.19), and confirming the TWO SA3a's-- one with and one without swords-- wrong, but that's what they gave him so that's what he wore!--and I can see the "S" hilt on at least the first Ernestine. The Bavarian Milit?r Handbuch even confirms pre-WW1 Spanish Campaign Medal.

[Dave Danner]

Truly a magnificant bar! If by odd sword hilts, you mean the "S" type Ernestines, these are so-called "Paris-style". The major EHO reference states that 2 dutchies used these hilts and the third used a more typical Prussian or Saxony style hilt. Controversy on this topic exists. The BDOS Journal has extensive discussion of this point. Unfortunately I am traveling now and cannot provide more details or cites for this information.

I'd think it is far and away the OTHER way, since the "Roman" hilts are most commonly seen in WW1 groups.

Terrific 1918 photo (he got the Crown to his BMV4X on 4.1.19), and confirming the TWO SA3a's-- one with and one without swords-- wrong, but that's what they gave him so that's what he wore!--and I can see the "S" hilt on at least the first Ernestine. The Bavarian Milit?r Handbuch even confirms pre-WW1 Spanish Campaign Medal.

Grainy photo, but the second SEHO looks like it has Roman hilts. So I think Rick's right that the second SEHO was also replaced like the SA3a.

As to the duchy-by-duchy question, I don't see a pattern. Looking not at SEHOs, but at other decorations specific to the three duchies, I see the following:

• Saxe-Altenburg: Duke Ernst Medal, 1st Class with Swords had Roman hilts. The examples of the swords clasp to Merit Medal of the SEHO for Saxe-Altenburg that I've seen, for 1870/1, also had Roman hilts.
• Saxe-Coburg-Gotha: all examples I have seen of the swords clasp to the Merit Medal of the SEHO for Saxe-Coburg-Gotha have Roman hilts. Same goes for the Oval Silver Duke Carl Eduard Medal with Crown and Sword Clasp.
• Saxe-Meiningen: the examples of the swords clasp to Merit Medal of the SEHO for Saxe-Meiningen that I have seen, from 1870/1 and China, have Roman hilts.

"S" hilts may be specific to particular makers, and those makers might have been located in particular duchies, making the S-type more common in one than the other two, but there doesn't appear to be a specific bias by any duchy.

From what I've seen, there are at least seven distinct hilt styles for German decorations, maybe more. Maybe we should have a separate thread for that topic.