Mattyboy Posted June 14, 2022 Posted June 14, 2022 Hi all, The Hptm Mau from MWB 31.10.1918 is probably a typo, as there is no person with this rank in the Rangliste.
Glenn J Posted June 15, 2022 Posted June 15, 2022 6 hours ago, Mattyboy said: Hi all, The Hptm Mau from MWB 31.10.1918 is probably a typo, as there is no person with this rank in the Rangliste. Hi Matt, it is not as clear cut as that. There are at least two possibilities: Hptm. d.L. (20.10.14) Wilhelm Mau of 1. Garde-Grenadier-Landwehr-Regiment or more likely: Hptm. d.R. (6.5.18) Willy Mau of Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 89 (serving with Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 175) Regards Glenn
Daniel Krause Posted June 15, 2022 Author Posted June 15, 2022 Mau - it is Willy from IR 175. Best, Daniel
Dave Danner Posted June 15, 2022 Posted June 15, 2022 Regarding Hptm. Walter Liegener from IR 18/RIR 18, he was born in 1878 in Pleß and died of a heart attack in 1940 in St. Brieuc while serving as Kommandant of Feldkommandantur 808 (V). More biographical information here: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=265223 He entered service on 17.3.1897, so he had the Centenarmedaille, and he retired on 31.12.1922, so he almost certainly also had the Dienstauszeichnungskreuz für Offiziere.
webr55 Posted June 16, 2022 Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) I would like to discuss two celebrity cases which I have had a closer look at, two famous people who are frequently cited as having had the HHOX. First one is Peter Suhrkamp (1891-1959), founder of Suhrkamp Publishers. He was Lt in WW1 (his real name was Heinrich Suhrkamp), and he is listed in the Verlustlisten 19.10.1916 as Unteroffz. in RIR 213. Both German and English wiki as well as other sources list a Royal HHOX for him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Suhrkamp Now I have looked into his biography "Peter Suhrkamp", which appeared first in 1975, then as expanded edition in 1991. It confirms that he was a War Volunteer in RIR 213. He made Vizefeldwebel and then Lt (there are several photos of him, see below). The book says "Leutnant der Landwehr", not sure if that is correct or if it should rather be Reserve. Anyway, he had a nervous breakdown in Jan 1918 and, as I understand, didn't make it back to the front after that. Now for the HHOX: The book says (p. 52) that he received the "Hohenzollern-Hausorden" as Leutnant (apparently in 1917, though that is not clear). He sent both his EK and the "Hohenzollern-Orden" to his father who then had them framed in a glass case and put them on the wall. There is a picture of his EK2 award, see below, as Vizefw in June 1917. The Hohenzollern document is not shown. There is not even a mentioning that he got the EK1, and no picture that would show it. Still, on p. 89, it says that Nazi authorities were impressed by his "high bravery award as officer" ("hohe Tapferkeitsauszeichnung als Offizier"). The picture with cap below seems to have a ribbon bar with two awards, it is very blurry though - and I don't see an EK1. By coincidence, we have an Oberlt. Richard Suhrkamp in the list, also from Oldenburg (IR 74/IR 91). But it is not him. My conclusion: I suspect Heinrich/Peter got something else, might have been the Princely one. But maybe someone has other sources. Edited June 16, 2022 by webr55
Daniel Krause Posted June 16, 2022 Author Posted June 16, 2022 Suhrkamp - I have only richard in my files, HOH3X and Oldenburg knights cross 2nd class with swords. No HEK for Heinrich, maybe he's got a HEK silver medal with swords, for which I have no award rolls... Best, Daniel
webr55 Posted June 16, 2022 Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Daniel Krause said: Suhrkamp - I have only richard in my files, HOH3X and Oldenburg knights cross 2nd class with swords. No HEK for Heinrich, maybe he's got a HEK silver medal with swords, for which I have no award rolls... Best, Daniel That would have been my second guess as well: He probably didn't even get the HEK, but rather the medal. Maybe that's why his biography never says "Königlich" nor "Ritterkreuz", just "Hausorden". Edited June 16, 2022 by webr55
Glenn J Posted June 16, 2022 Posted June 16, 2022 4 hours ago, webr55 said: The book says "Leutnant der Landwehr", not sure if that is correct or if it should rather be Reserve. Leutnant der Landwehr Infanterie 1. Aufgeb. (1st levy) on 11 January 1918 (Landwehr-Bezirk Bremerhaven). Regards Glenn
webr55 Posted June 16, 2022 Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Glenn J said: Leutnant der Landwehr Infanterie 1. Aufgeb. (1st levy) on 11 January 1918 (Landwehr-Bezirk Bremerhaven). Regards Glenn Ah, thanks! That makes it even more likely that he got only the medal, since he most probably made Lt AFTER receiving the "Hohenzollern". The second celebrity case, even more famous, is Otto Hahn (1879-1968). The later Nobel prize winner is credited (among other awards) with the Royal HHOX on German Wikipedia, as well as in other places: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Hahn I had a look into his biographies, both "Otto Hahn: ein Forscherleben unserer Zeit" (1984) as well as "Otto Hahn: Leben und Werk in Texten und Bildern" (1988). So Hahn, already being a Dr., was a One-Year-Volunteer in IR 81 in 1901/02, decided to pass on the Lt and just made Vizefw dR, then was promoted to Lt at the beginning of WW1, apparently in a Landwehr Reg, then at Großes Hauptquartier and in PioReg 36. The biographies also confirm all the other awards listed on wiki: both EKs, the Hessen Tapferkeitsmedaille (seen on his ribbon bar in the drawing below) and the Saxon Albrechtsorden with swords. There is also a picture that shows Hahn wearing his EK1 when being introduced into the Prussian Academy in 1925 (see below). However, there is no mentioning at all of a Hohenzollern, neither Royal nor Princely. And as a Lt, he could not have just got the medal. So either someone on Wikipedia made this up (I could not find the original source for it) - or, but that is just my speculation, he might have received a Hohenzollern-Hausorden from the Kaiser personally, during Weimar time. He would have been the perfect person for this, being Director of the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institut for Chemistry and Senator of the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Gesellschaft. But I don't have any evidence for that. Edited June 16, 2022 by webr55
webr55 Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 Another Ernst Schmidt, teacher in Lüdenscheid, a very late award. This is not the Olt dR Ernst Schmidt from FAR 62, we had him already and he was Landmesser in Hamburg. From Lüdenscheider Abendzeitung, 22.4.1919
Dave Danner Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 There are a bunch of Schmidts who received the HOH3X late in the war whose first names are unknown. The only Ernst Schmidt I can find connected to Lüdenscheid is Ernst August Schmidt, *28.3.1889, Rektor & Volksschullehrer in Lüdenscheid. I do not know where he was born, so I haven't found him in any casualty lists which might allow us to connect him to a unit. I do have a name for one of the late-war Schmidts: Schmidt, Anton, *6.1.1893 in Paderborn, HOH3X on 30.10.1918 as a Lt.d.R. in IR 369. He was wounded on 24.10.1914 as a Kriegsfreiwilliger in IR 158, and twice wounded (1916 and 1918) as a Lt.d.R. in IR 369. On 13/04/2022 at 15:46, Dave Danner said: There were three Feldartillerie officers named Hertz who received the HOH3X: • OLt.d.R., FAR 504 - 18.07.1918 HOH3X • OLt.d.R., FAR 17 - 30.09.1918 HOH3X • Lt.d.R., RFAR 3 - 15.10.1918 HOH3X The first two I know, but I don't know which was which: Hertz, Gustav, *13.04.1886 in Kleptow, Prenzlau, †25.02.1967 in Verden an der Aller; Lt.d.R. (Anklam) d. FAR 17 (27.01.11), 17.05.16 OLt.d.R., ... Maj.d.R., Kdr. I./AR 258, OTL d.R., Kdr. AR 240, 01.07.42 Oberst d.R.; besides the HOH3X, other known awards are the Ritterkreuz (29.09.40), DKiG (20.03.42), Anerkennungsurkunde des Ob.d.H. (05.12.44), Allgemeines Sturmabzeichen, Verwundetenabzeichen in schwarz. Hertz, Albrecht Franz Julius, *11.06.1887 in Eichenrode, Wirsitz, †03.09.1937 in Berlin; Lt.d.R. (VI Berlin) d. FAR 17, 27.4.18 OLt.d.R.; Ingenieur in Berlin. Hans, the OLt.d.R. in FAR 53, was already a Hptm.d.R. from 30.07.1915, so he can be eliminated from consideration. The other Lt.d.R. in FAR 17 was Albrecht's brother Georg. He was "schwer verwundet" in 1915 and discharged in 1916, so he can be eliminated. I don't have anything on Martin, the Lt.d.R. in FAR 9, other than that he was born in Würzburg. He is probably the one who received the MMV2 with the Munitions-Kolonnen und Trains of the 54. ID. The RFAR 3 Lt.d.R. is a bit of a mystery. RFAR 3 was a Pomeranian regiment and the active Hauptmann in FAR 17, Jochen, was a Batterie-Führer in RFAR 3. The only Lt.d.R. I know of connected to RFAR 3 was Albert, the later Luftwaffe Oberst. He would seem like the best candidate; however, it appears that he is the Lt.d.R. who was made an active Leutnant in FAR 17 on 14.10.1917, a year before the award of the HOH3X. Maybe Gunnar has come across him in his research into Fliegertruppe officers? He was from Kleptow, like Hans and Gustav, so they may be brothers. Further on HOH3X- and Ritterkreuzträger Gustav Hertz: you can also add to his awards the Krimschild, the Commander Cross with Swords of the Order of the Star of Romania on the Ribbon for Military Virtue (Rum3XT), and presumably the Romanian Crusade Against Communism Medal. 1
webr55 Posted June 17, 2022 Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Dave Danner said: There are a bunch of Schmidts who received the HOH3X late in the war whose first names are unknown. The only Ernst Schmidt I can find connected to Lüdenscheid is Ernst August Schmidt, *28.3.1889, Rektor & Volksschullehrer in Lüdenscheid. I do not know where he was born, so I haven't found him in any casualty lists which might allow us to connect him to a unit. Great! According to genealogical sources, he was born in Lüdenscheid. Edited June 17, 2022 by webr55
webr55 Posted June 18, 2022 Posted June 18, 2022 While we are at it, let's focus a bit more on the Schmidts. I've been looking at some candidates from Verlustlisten (but these are rather candidates, might need additional confirmation): Hptm dR Schmidt from IR 401 might be Hans, born in Wolmirstedt on 10.2.1877. The Hptm dL, cdr of PB 344, and the Hptm dRaD, cdr of PB 305, can they be found?
webr55 Posted June 18, 2022 Posted June 18, 2022 (edited) For the Hptm dR Schneider from Eisenbahn, there is, if I am not mistaken, only one possibility: the 1914 Olt dR from EisenbReg 2, in Berlin, with LD2 and a KO4X. I wonder if he is the Hans Schneider who is listed in the DOA as Ingenieur and Lt dR in Magdeburg, with KO4X and DSWA, born 13.2.1879 in Magdeburg. At ancestry, I find the death certificate for a Friedrich Wilhelm Hans Schneider, Kaufmann, born 13.2.1879 in Magdeburg, died in Berlin 15.6.1947. Edited June 18, 2022 by webr55
webr55 Posted June 18, 2022 Posted June 18, 2022 Lt dR Schnuis: an extremely rare (Friesian) name. In the Verlustlisten, there are only two with that name - and one is listed as "Lt dR Friedrich Schnuis", born "21.12. in Potshausen". At ancestry etc., I don't find anyone with that name - however, there was a "Frerich Schnuis", born 1.12.1889 in Potshausen, died 7.10.1962 in Krautsand. A short bio of him is found in a book "Leben und Lernen hinter Stacheldraht" (2001): he studied theology and became Pastor (later Studiendirektor des Predigerseminars Göhrde, and Superintendent) - and he was a Hauptmann dR. I think this is him.
Glenn J Posted June 18, 2022 Posted June 18, 2022 I have only encountered one officer of that name and he is indeed Frerich Theodor Schnuis; Leutnant d.R. (11.11.16) in Reserve-Jäger-Bataillon Nr. 17. Regards Glenn 1
webr55 Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 On 05/03/2022 at 19:53, webr55 said: Amtsgerichtsrat Otto from Nienburg. I have not yet been able to find his first name, but he should be the Olt dR Otto from Nienburg/Weser in IR 82 in the 1910 Prussian ranklist. Probably would be found in the Adressbuch Nienburg. He might be the Hptm dL from LIR 31 without first name in our list. Acc. to the Richterzeitung, he also got Hamburg and Bremen Hanseatic Crosses. By the way, any news with regard to the first name of Olt dR Otto from IR 82?
Glenn J Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 19 minutes ago, webr55 said: By the way, any news with regard to the first name of Olt dR Otto from IR 82? Walter Richard Heinrich Maximilian. He retired from reserve service on 23 May 1911. So presumably if serving in WW1 would have had the rank of Oblt. d.R.a.D or Hptm. d.R.a.D and not Hptm. d.L. Regards Glenn
Glenn J Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 He was promoted to Hptm. d.R.a.D. on 3 November 1914. Unfortunately his entry in the Militär-Wochenblatt (edition 158/159 of 18 November 1914, column 3388 does not detail the unit he was assigned to. Regards Glenn
webr55 Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 14 minutes ago, Glenn J said: He was promoted to Hptm. d.R.a.D. on 3 November 1914. Unfortunately his entry in the Militär-Wochenblatt (edition 158/159 of 18 November 1914, column 3388 does not detail the unit he was assigned to. Regards Glenn Ah ok - so he is the Hptm dRaD from IR 75 we already have in the list, thanks.
webr55 Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 (edited) Ok so: the HdL Otto was from LIR 31. Fortunately, they have a regimental history - and there is a HdR Otto as leader of 10. Kompanie at the beginning of the war. IF that is him (so if he turned Landwehr before April 1917, when he received the HHOX), there would only be two Hptm dR Otto in the 1914 list as candidates, one in GrenReg 12 (Walter?), the other in FüsReg 36 - which might be him. To make it more confusing, in the Verlustlisten 21.9.1916 there is a Hptm dL Max Otto from LIR 31, from Kolbatz/Greifenhagen in Pommern. The same one is also listed in Dez 1914 as "Hptm, vermutlich dL". Both times wounded. So this might be a second Max Otto - besides the IR 75 one - who received the HHOX. Edited June 19, 2022 by webr55
Glenn J Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 GR 12 Otto is Walter. FR 36 Otto is Friedrich Reinhold Ernst. Regards Glenn
webr55 Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 20 minutes ago, Glenn J said: GR 12 Otto is Walter. FR 36 Otto is Friedrich Reinhold Ernst. Regards Glenn Ah ok - we're getting there. Walter Otto should be the HdR who got the HHOX in RIR 12. Born 1873. It looks like Ernst was KIA in late 1914 already. Our Hptm dL from LIR 31 is probably the Max Otto in VL who turned from dR to dL at some point, IF the regimental history is correct. That would leave two possible Olt dR in the 1914 ranklist (the one in IR 146 should be Walther, wounded in 1915 as HdR in IR 146, so not him): - one in 4. GzF, from Berlin, LD2 - one in GR 2, from Stettin, LD2
Glenn J Posted June 19, 2022 Posted June 19, 2022 2 hours ago, webr55 said: - one in 4. GzF, from Berlin, LD2 - one in GR 2, from Stettin, LD2 - one in 4. GzF, from Berlin, LD2: Fritz Otto (Kriminalkommissar in Berlin) - one in GR 2, from Stettin, LD2: Richard Otto (Postal official, killed in action 26 August 1914) The Hauptmann d.L. in Landwehr-Bezirk I Altona in the 1914 Rangliste is Max Hans Louis Otto' Regards Glenn 1
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now