The medal bar of GFM Walter Model

[Paul C]

The so called 'Hitler Diaries" were disproven not on provenance but on hand writting analysis. Provenance is not always the deciding factor.

I am still waiting on an answer from PK in regards to the question about "OMSA data" from post 63.

[Imperial]

Hitler diaries? As an analogy? You've got to be joking. Someone selling diaries promulgated as having been written BY Hitler and an anonymous medal bar later shown through research to have belong to a prominent German commander? I don't see any connection. George Petersen (Spelled correctly with an "e" not "o") has sold thousands of high end pieces. Burned once on an RK grouping is a matter of statistics with that much volume. One anonymous medal bar carefully matched with existing records does not a long shot make.

[Les]

If this bar had all his WW2 stuff on it I would buy the "tribute bar" story. Who would have said,"I think I shall make a tribute bar for GEN Model showing his pre-war stuff?"

If that's the case here is my Manfed von Richtofen tribute bar. I think I have his EK1 laying around here somewhere too.....

Don,

A tribute bar does not have to be the final or "penultimate" bar with everything on it. The person having it made could, for reasons of their own, want a bar representing a specific period of some one's life or career.

One possible example might someone whose relative served with or under someone during a specific phase of that person's career. So, if the son of a staff officer who served with Model in 1940 wanted a bar that paid tribute to his father -and- Model a bar from a specific time period and with medals up to but not past that period, might be what the bar was about.

[dond]

I find this line of thought highly unlikely. If that is the best the prosecution can come up with I'd say the evidence is more in Paul's favor.

[Les]

Hitler diaries? As an analogy? You've got to be joking. Someone selling diaries promulgated as having been written BY Hitler and an anonymous medal bar later shown through research to have belong to a prominent German commander? I don't see any connection. George Petersen (Spelled correctly with an "e" not "o") has sold thousands of high end pieces. Burned once on an RK grouping is a matter of statistics with that much volume. One anonymous medal bar carefully matched with existing records does not a long shot make.

Stephen (Previtera)...you have two accounts on this forum, but I still know it's you (under "STP" and "Imperial.")

The Hitler Diaries was chosen as a quick example, not as a direct and exact comparison.

Provenace is still a critical matter, and there has been none produced for the bar. Looks alone can be deceiving. Because it looks right, and matches expectations, does not mean it must be right.

The courts have learned that looks alone, and eye-witness testimony is not absolutely conclusive evidence that some might be the father of an illegitimate child, or committed a crime. Despite "expert witnesses" and other evidence, DNA evidence has repeatedly shown that "evidence" can be misleading or wrong, despite the intentions of those providing it.

Peterson (sorry for the typo) was sold a grouping "with provenance" by a well known dealer who represented it as coming from the family.

The point is fakes, abound, and there are more than a few in books printed for/by a company in Virgina I could name that have some highly photogenic fakes in them, that should not be in there. Glass houses....?

Edited February 8, 2010 by Les

[Imperial]

I think "Imperial" rather catchy myself. More so than "STP". But "STP" has its merits for those race fans out there.

Less (sorry for the typo)

You can ply your nonsense as an extension of whatever goals you desire, but know one day that when you write your book on the "what ifs" of history, the Model bar won't be on the cover. Congratulations Paul, once again. Your contribution deserves its day in the sun, shining brightly, and so does the medal bar you discovered.

[Wild Card]

Stephen (Previtera)...you have two accounts on this forum, but I still know it's you (under "STP" and "Imperial.")

The point is fakes, abound, and there are more than a few in books printed for/by a company in Virgina I could name that have some highly photogenic fakes in them, that should not be in there. Glass houses....?

If they were printed by a company in "Virgina" I can understand that there might be some problems.

I don't mean to embarrass you Les, we all make mistakes; and I think that a little comedy relief, although

unintentional was well timed.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Imperial]

Wild Card,

After the 'War of Northern Aggression" (as they call that affair of 1861-65 down here) we were stripped of all our equipment here in the Rebel capitol by you darn Yankees....Thus, the quality has suffered ever since!

[PKeating]

Which dealer sold this medal bar to Paul Chepurko?

Why has Paul not discussed this medal bar on the WAF, where he is a moderator?

PK

Edited February 8, 2010 by PKeating

[Ulsterman]

Gentlemen-

Tempers! Keep it civil please.

Stephen, I for one would appreciate it you went by your name here or at least sign your initials at the end of the post.

[VtwinVince]

Wild Card, I appreciate your comments, with which I can't argue. I tend to think that the bar under discussion is Model's, with a high probability factor, say, 95%. The only attributed medal bar in my collection which I would assign 100% certainty to in terms of provenance is my grandfather's and his father's. Of course these came through inheritance.

[Paul C]

Which dealer sold this medal bar to Paul Chepurko?

Why has Paul not discussed this medal bar on the WAF, where he is a moderator?

PK

The bar was bought from:

Militaria Berlin

Schulze & von Eicke GbR

at the last show in October 2008 in Gunzenhausen, Germany. Feel free to contact the dealer and ask him what he bought from the same person who sold him the medal bar.

I did not post this bar at the WAF because I posted it here. Most of the collectors who are interested in it are active on both forums. Yes I am a moderator at WAF but what is the you point?

You have still not answered the question about the "OMSA data".

PK, what is your reference to this? Now come on you made the statement now back it up. What are you talking about? I will hold you to the statement and don't side step it by asking more questions of me.

I will make it easy for you. Just complete the following statement:

What I was referring to by "all that OMSA data" is ...............

It is not that hard.

[Wild Card]

Wild Card, I appreciate your comments, with which I can't argue. I tend to think that the bar under discussion is Model's, with a high probability factor, say, 95%. The only attributed medal bar in my collection which I would assign 100% certainty to in terms of provenance is my grandfather's and his father's. Of course these came through inheritance.

:cheers:

[PKeating]

You have still not answered the question about the "OMSA data".

PK, what is your reference to this? Now come on you made the statement now back it up. What are you talking about? I will hold you to the statement and don't side step it by asking more questions of me.

I will make it easy for you. Just complete the following statement:

What I was referring to by "all that OMSA data" is ...............

It is not that hard.

It was a throwaway reference based on a couple of threads last year in which the names Seymour and Ludvigsen figured. However, I see now that they were closed and removed from public view by the management so I don't think we should start a rematch. I respect this website and its management in ways in which I was never able to respect the other major websites and even if some of the chaps participating in this thread seem to flout GMIC's codes and rules with ease, with ad hominem tactics, double accounts, common verbal abuse and so on, I try to respect the rules and to operate within them. In any case, you were very vocal in those threads so you surely don't need me to replay them to you. We wouldn't want to force the closure and 'administrative removal' of this thread, would we? On that note, thanks for telling me whom you bought the medal bar from. I do hope it turns out to be the real thing. In any case, you have some serious heavyweights batting for you. If you do decide to move it on some day, I'm sure a couple of the richer chaps who've contributed here will be fighting over it. A Brilliantentragers medal bar? Loadsamoney! I bet the dealer is reading this and regretting not researching it!

Regards,

PK

[Wild Card]

This is all getting a little too esoteric for me. At this point, I don’t think that I would recognize

the answer to my question if it was plainly posted.

I will contact OMSA directly, thank you anyway.

[dond]

You would think there would be a photo of him wearing it. I'm sure he attended more than one dress ceremony between 1935 and 39.

[larsb001]

Until now this have been a most amusing thread.

However, I don't think it's fair to start to spell out fellow members full names in an effort to make an argument.

I don't mind showing items from my collection but I would not do so if I wasn't convinced that I could be anonymous. There are after all 5600 members of the GMIC but only appr. 187 active (my estimate based on choosing btw two random numbers I just wrote on a piece of paper) - none of us knows how many of those non active members that are just waiting to link expensive items with a name ... and an address?

I don't know the English expression, so I'll just use the Danish; Dårlig stil.

Regards, Lars

PS - Paul, congratulations with your bar (seems I have choosen side now)

[Naxos]

Until now this have been a most amusing thread.

However, I don't think it's fair to start to spell out fellow members full names in an effort to make an argument.

I don't mind showing items from my collection but I would not do so if I wasn't convinced that I could be anonymous. There are after all 5600 members of the GMIC but only appr. 187 active (my estimate based on choosing btw two random numbers I just wrote on a piece of paper) - none of us knows how many of those non active members that are just waiting to link expensive items with a name ... and an address?

I don't know the English expression, so I'll just use the Danish; Dårlig stil.

Regards, Lars

PS - Paul, congratulations with your bar (seems I have choosen side now)

Agreed!

btw: Dårlig stil means "poor etiquette"

Edited February 8, 2010 by Naxos

[PKeating]

I've said all I intend to say, for the moment, on this matter. This thread speaks for itself. Once a discussion descends to personal abuse, it is no longer a discussion because the side hurling the abuse have nothing more to say. However, given that the hits on this thread are climbing towards the 5,000 mark, this question of naming names merits a comment, which I address to the GMIC membership as a whole.

As someone whose full - and real - name has been spelled out in this thread and many others, I don't have a problem with it, despite having valuable collections of classic motorcycles, medals and photographs, and despite having had certain members of the management of a certain forum try hard to make trouble in 'real time' for not just me but my wife because they were angry about the exposés of crooks and crooked dealings I published on the internet when I still had spare time to run that kind of website. Some people have bona fide reasons for using pseudonyms. I use pseudonyms for a lot of my work. I sometimes wonder if I ought to have used pseudonyms on all of these militaria websites. On the other hand, I have nothing to hide because I am neither a crook nor a liar and stand by just about everything I have ever posted, the occasions when I have retracted statements notwithstanding. I think most if not all of the people in this thread who have been named have published their full names and, in some cases, addresses on the web at various points in the past ten years. So that's a bit of a non-point and also a bit of a red herring.

Finally, I'd like to empathise with our Chairman over the large number of messages he has doubtless received, calling for the banishment of Les Peters and myself from this website. I imagine all sorts of pressure and implicit threats have been brought to bear by certain people with long-standing grudges and various agendas. I confess that I too have an agenda: it involves pointing out dishonesty when it occurs. That has made me a few enemies. Les Peters is cut of similar cloth. And we've both been around a long time. Our enemies are balanced by our friends. This website has no hidden agenda. It is not an advertising hoarding for shady dealers nor a sales tool for crooked privateers of one kind or another. This thread evokes the bad old days on other forums, including Wehrmacht-Awards and German-Daggers, where I was once a moderator with the late, great Bill Stump, who would have waded into this thread and made short work of things.

I don't know about you fellows but I do know that I do not wish to see the sort of WAF-style bullying tactics that alienated so many people imported to GMIC, which was founded partly as a reaction against the rot on that website. I should add that I speak as a former Lifetime Member of the WAF. I might also add that the way out of the growing hegemony of the WAF-GDC axis that Bianchi and Gottlieb were trying to form a few years ago was paved by the forum I shaped with the help of other 'Awkward Squad' members: MCF. GMIC is vastly classier than MCF, which was unashamedly tabloid and populist in tone and nature but also very effective. Some disgruntled WAF people tried to form an alternative forum - GAMF - but messed it up by trying to 'pre-ban' people they didn't like, with embarrassing consequences. Maybe it's time to cure some memory problems by setting up a cyber-museum of militaria forums since 1999. If nothing else, it might serve to encourage some people to mind their manners...

Prosper Keating

Edited February 9, 2010 by PKeating

[Paul C]

I have been following this post for several days and have gotten somewhat frustrated. I feel that it is proper to make some points.

First off I do not feel it was proper for Les to give Imperials full name. It is his decision to use or not use his name. No one has the right to take that decision away from him.

Secondly, for a statement to have validity the person making that statement must be qualified to make that statement, otherwise it is just an opinion.

Third, when I first posted this medal bar I did not just say that it belonged to GFM Model. I backed up my attribution with facts. I am a trained Historian and have received my BA in History from Montclair State College in Upper Montclair, NJ USA. One of the many things I learned in college while studying history is that historians deal in facts and primary sources.

For the record I will restate the facts of the attribution of this bar to Model.

1. Model is the only one listed in the Reichheers Ranglisten with this combination of 1914-1918 awards.

2. The HOH3X is a combat award therefore this bar did not belong to a non-combat officer.

3. For an officer to have these awards and received the 25 LSC in the years 1936-9 he must have been in the Reichheers.

4. This bar consists of authentic decorations.

5. The bars construction and material is consistent with the 1933-45 period.

For the record I will state my qualifications in regards to medalbar and ribbon bar research.

1. I have been collecting medal bar and ribbon bar for over 10 years.

2. I have examined well over 1000 medal bars and ribbon bars.

3. I have been published in the Journel of Orders and Medals Society of America and the BDOS Journal. In May of 2008 I authored an

JOMSA article titled Researching Imperial German Army and Navy Officers.

4. I have traced out well over 100 medal bars and ribbon bars.

5. My reference library contains of 100 books of ranklists, award rolls, and unit histories, as well as books on awards and

decorations.

PK/Les, I have stated the facts of the attribution of this bar to GFM Model and my qualifications for making them. Both of you oppose this attribution. I have answered every question that you have demand that I answer, even when I did had have to as when you asked from whom I purchased the bar. For me to say who I bought this bar from is a matter of good faith. Now I am asking that you also act in good faith and answer my questions.

I ask you and challenge you to state your facts for opposing the attribution of this bar to GFM Model. Statements of facts contain words such as is and are. Statements of fact do not contain words such as could be, should be or maybe. I also challenge you to state your qualifications in regards to medalbar and ribbon bar research.

PK and Les, if you cannot or will not answer this challenge then I submit that your opinions do not carry any weight. Do not attempt to take the high ground on this by saying I have already stated my case or this is a personal attack. The members of this forum will see that as you ducking the challenge. Also do not make a personal attack against me or those that defend me. They defend, not me, but my facts and qualifications.

Moderators and Chairman please do not lock or delete this post. Forum members please do not post a reply in this thread until PK and Les have replied.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Paul C

[PKeating]

Read the first line of my last post.

PK

[Naxos]

.... Forum members please do not post a reply in this thread until PK and Les have replied.

Paul; I do not agree with you attempting to control this tread.

I support your position on the origin of the bar based on the solid research conducted.

Since there is (yet) no direct evidence linking the bar to Walter Model, the claim can be challenged.

I also suspect that Les' motive for challenging the research done on this medal bar has little to do with his interest in the subject. It appears to me this is another round of his on-going heel-nipping directed at Rick Research and you (Paul C).

Edited February 10, 2010 by Naxos

[dond]

A shame really, and not the least bit gentlemanly.

[Claudio]

Something for you Paul:

Hermann Historica

Los Nr.8067

Generalfeldmarschall Walter Model (1891 - 1945) - Marschallstab.

Sammleranfertigung seines am 31.3.1944 verliehenen Marschallstabes. Silber, teilweise vergoldet, gute Juweliersarbeit. Mit rotem Samt bezogener Schaft mit aufgelegten Hoheitsadlern und Eisernen Kreuzen. Vergoldete Knäufe mit gebundenem Eichenlaub und mit Eisernem Kreuz bzw. mit Hoheitsadler verziert. Umlaufende Dedikationsinschriften in gotischen Lettern "Der Führer dem Generalfeldmarschall Model" und "Zum Freiheitskampf des Großdeutschen Volkes 31. März 1944". Länge 49,5 cm.

Zustand: I-II Limit: 2500 EURO

[Stogieman]

So someone made a copy of Model's staff!? I guess what's more interesting is HH actually describing it as such!