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Just got this new medal bar, and I'm trying to figure out what's missing from the last position. It also came with a ribbon bar that did NOT include the EK2 ribbon or the mystery ribbon on the far right. I have two theories: 1) it was a Braunschweig KVK2 with non-combatant ribbon (which is a little odd, since the EK2 has the black ribbon), or 2) it was a Swedish Order of the Sword Knight's badge. I have no identification on the recipient, and probably will never be able to figure this one out. Any thoughts?

IMG_0863_2.jpg

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What's missing?

A NEW HOME in Germany (in my own Collection)!!!

I guess here is a Swedish Order of the Sword missing. An Austian Order of the Iron Crown is also possible. Brunswik is almost impossible.

If you want to sell the bar... :rolleyes:

Best regards from Shanghai

Seeheld

Edited by seeheld
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Hi Tim,

I think it can be only a Swedish Order of the Sword... If I were you, I would search among the officers of the Fusilier Regiment Queen Victoria of Sweden (Pomeranian) No.34...

Ciao,

Claudio

P.S.: see also my thread http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/11870-interesting-new-nco-medal-bar/page__p__114533__hl__schwantes__fromsearch__1#entry114533

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I really like this medal bar too, especially the Griffin Order. :cheers:

I think it is the Swedish Sword Order that is missing. The Austrian Order of the Crown ribbon is similar but different as is the Dutch Orange-Nassau Order ribbon.

Do you hope to restore this medal bar Tim?

Best wishes

Matt

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I really like this medal bar too, especially the Griffin Order. :cheers:

I think it is the Swedish Sword Order that is missing. The Austrian Order of the Crown ribbon is similar but different as is the Dutch Orange-Nassau Order ribbon.

Do you hope to restore this medal bar Tim?

Best wishes

Matt

Yes, I have to re-attach the Friedrichs Order - the ring is completely missing. And then I want to replace the Sword Order if that's what it was. It would be great to find the recipient, but I'm not very hopeful. The Fusilier Regt. Konigin Victoria von Schweden was a good lead, but nobody with the right combination of awards appears in the 1914 Rangliste. That would mean that this officer would have earned all of these orders after the publication of the 1914 Rangliste, including the KO4 without swords. Hmmm... I wish there was a roll of the Griffin Order, but to my knowledge, there's nothing out there.

Tim

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Yes, I have to re-attach the Friedrichs Order - the ring is completely missing. And then I want to replace the Sword Order if that's what it was. It would be great to find the recipient, but I'm not very hopeful. The Fusilier Regt. Konigin Victoria von Schweden was a good lead, but nobody with the right combination of awards appears in the 1914 Rangliste. That would mean that this officer would have earned all of these orders after the publication of the 1914 Rangliste, including the KO4 without swords. Hmmm... I wish there was a roll of the Griffin Order, but to my knowledge, there's nothing out there.

Tim

Friedrichs: and the order to the swords above. They look like they are barely hanging on. Careful bending these back, you don't know how close the metal fatigue is to its limit.

This bar will really look outstanding with the Sweden Sword order on the end. Great bar to a Prussian with some nice connections.

Can you show us the back please? And perhaps a peek underneath if the felt is not tightly held down.

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Here is a photo of the back. The cloth is stitched down pretty tight, but you can see some traces of other ribbon colors where some scrap ribbon was used - note the red peeking through next to the Crown Order.

Yes, the tiny rings of the swords suspension are really bent, and I haven't tried to straighten them yet. I will need to wait until a day when I have a steady hand and the patience to do it very carefully.

IMG_0867_2.jpg

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I was checking the Griffin Order rolls. Here is no enties regarding a Lieutenant or higher rank who received the knight cross during service in the Füsilier Regt. Königin Victoria von Schweden.

Maybe this guy transfered to this regiment after receiving this order during service in an other regiment. So far no match.

regards from China

Seeheld

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I am not sure the WF3aF should go in the 4 position. I could have been a Prussian 25 year service.

Wouldn't the ribbon be way to pale for it, and would it then not be in wrong position?

I think the WF3aX does match. Unless it is a replacement (Tim?) - if so, it could be a pre-war award without swords. A Württemberg Friedrich nonetheless.

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Lovely bar! I think that one should be identifiable...

Wasn't there a Dutch ordere that used this ribbon as well, or at least a very similar one?

Orange-Nassau was similar, but I think had a white stripe on the edge as well. I really like this bar.

The Order of Oranje-Nassau had the white stripe, but the Order of the Golden Lion did not. It was yellow with the narrow blue edge stripe. However, almost every German recipient of that order appears to be royalty, with a first class award.

If the separate ribbon bar Tim mentioned goes with it, the ribbon bar might be a pre-war KO4, Centenary, WF3b/WF3a, MG3. The the wartime medal bar added the EK2 and the mystery medal. I agree a Swedish Sword Order seems most likely, but I can't find a candidate either.

I only can find one peacetime WF3/MG3 combo with a wartime WF3aX I can't rule out due to having other awards - Rittm. Kurt Freiherr von Senden-Bibran of KR 5. However, I can't find any evidence of a KO4 or the Swedish order.

Recalled Maj.a.D. Hans Freiherr von Werthern had the prewar KO4/Centenary/WF3b/MG3 combo, as well as a wartime EK2 and WF3aX, but (1) no Sword Order and (2) he did have an Italian Order of the Crown (JK5), which should be there.

I am left to conclude that the WF3aX doesn't belong. The EK2 might be the only wartime award.

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The Friedrichs Order came with this group, although detached. Long service cross ribbon would be much darker.

I didn't realise there was a roll of Griffon Order recipients. That could be very helpful. Now I just have to figure out how to narrow it down.

Tim

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There was also an Italian Order of the Crown with the group, on a ribbon that had been removed from a medal bar. But then again, there was also an 1870 EK2 group. Possibly a family group, but who knows?

I don't that helps clarify anything. I don't see why the Italian Crown Order would be part of this group. These are supposed to be vet bring-backs from the war, but there's no way to kniw if all of these items came from the same source. Thus, it is possible he Friedrichs Order didn't belong on this bar, but it seems likely.

Tim

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After rechecking my Griffin Rolls I found one possible Lieutenant. Served in the Garde-Kürassier-Regiment in 1904. His name is Bredow, Leopold Waldemar von.

He got the PrKO4, MecklGO3, SchwedSO3a.

This means I found 3 of 4!!! Only the Friedrichs-Order I can't find.

Regards from Hongkong

Seeheld

Edited by seeheld
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After rechecking my Griffin Rolls I found one possible Lieutenant. Served in the Garde-Kürassier-Regiment in 1904. His name is Bredow, Leopold Waldemar von.

He got the PrKO4, MecklGO3, SchwedSO3a.

This means I found 3 of 4!!! Only the Friedrichs-Order I can't find.

Regards from Hongkong

Seeheld

He was born in 1875. According to my rolls his Griffin Order came never back to Schwerin...

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Leopold Waldemar von Bredow also had the Knight's Cross of the Italian Order of the Crown and the Spanish Order of Military Merit 1st Class.

This indeed looks to be our guy. According to the 1914 Rangliste, he was a Rittmeister in Kürassier Regt. Kaiser Nikolaus I von Russland (Brandenburgisches) Nr. 6, the Ehrenrangliste has him down as Major a. D.

Surprisingly, this site seems to give some further data that seems to match the 1875 birthyear given:

http://www.wargs.com/noble/strachwitz.html

Leopold Waldemar von Bredow, b. Bredow bei Nauen 31 Oct. 1875, d. Lausanne 1 Oct. 1933

m. Washington, D. C., 6 May 1905.

According to this page, he married a von Bismarck:

http://gw4.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=pmlhennings&lang=nl&m=N&v=BREDOW

Hope of use.

Regards,

Sandro

Edited by GdC26
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Three is a von Bredow listed in the Swedish "statskalender" 1919 as a "Riddare av Kungl. Svärdsorden 2:s klass" (roughly knight of the Order of the sword second class). The second class knight was exclusive for foreigners and made of silver, otherwise just like the gold knight's cross. It wasn't a hit (I guess awardees wanted it in gold) and is pretty rare to find today.

/Kim

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This indeed looks to be our guy. According to the 1914 Rangliste, he was a Rittmeister in Kürassier Regt. Kaiser Nikolaus I von Russland (Brandenburgisches) Nr. 6, the Ehrenrangliste has him down as Major a. D.

Surprisingly, this site seems to give some further data that seems to match the 1875 birthyear given:

http://www.wargs.com/noble/strachwitz.html

Leopold Waldemar von Bredow, b. Bredow bei Nauen 31 Oct. 1875, d. Lausanne 1 Oct. 1933

m. Washington, D. C., 6 May 1905.

According to this page, he married a von Bismarck:

http://gw4.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=pmlhennings&lang=nl&m=N&v=BREDOW

Hope of use.

Regards,

Sandro

Leopold Waldemar von Bredow was married twice. The marriage in Washington DC was to Frances Clara Newlands. She died on 22 August 1907 in Berlin. They had one daughter, Friederike Frances Adelheid, born on 2 November 1906. The second marriage was to Hannah Leopoldine Alice Gräfin von Bismarck-Schönhausen. The first wife wasn't a noblewomen, being American, but she was the daughter of a U.S. Senator, Francis Griffith Newlands, who served as U.S. Senator from Nevada from 1903 until his death in 1917.

The problem with Bredow remains why, if it was his medal bar, he would wear only one of three foreign decorations. Italy could be explained by the war, but why neutral Sweden and not neutral Spain?

Edited by Dave Danner
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This is all pretty amazing. First of all, I didn't even know there WAS a roll of recipients of the Griffin Order. Still, I can't explain the absence of the Spanish order from this bar, so it may be too soon to conclude that this is our man. On the other hand, there may not be any better candidates.

The original story on the group was that it was "taken from the uniform of a Lieutenant General when he was captured in 1945," but that story is barely plausible. There is a General's shoulder board that came with the group (just one) but as I said there is also an 1870 EK2 medal bar, so obviously the story is just a story. It's possible the shoulder board was taken from the uniform of such a person, but the rest of it may have come from other sources, which I why I didn't give the Italian Order of the Crown much thought when I first posted this.

The only other thing in the group that may (or may not) have any bearing is a Johanniter Order, Ehrenritter. There is no particular reason to believe that the Johanniter belonged to this officer, or for that matter to the owner of the EK2 bar.

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