Prussia Prussian/Luftwaffe Officer's Medal Bar

[tyanacek]

Hi guys,

This was my prize purchase this weekend at the OVMS Show. Of interest is the placement of the Austrian Military Merit Cross. Rather than being placed at the very end of the bar as a foreign decoration it is placed immediately following the Hohenzollern House Order and before the Hindenburg Cross. This is a clear indication that the bar was assembled or re-mounted post-Anschluß. Austria was no longer a foreign country but was now a part of the Greater German Reich and so the precedence of the Austrian decorations was elevated. Of course, the presence of the Czech Annexation Medal and Prague Castle Bar also confirm a post-Anschluß assembly/re-mount.

This bar was probably assembled in mid-1939 and the owner was most likely an Oberst. He was obviously on active duty in the Luftwaffe.

Best regards,

Tom

[tyanacek]

Notice that each of the Luftwaffe eagle devices is different. The eagle on the left is slightly larger and silvered tombak. The eagle on the right is silvered iron. Both the long service cross and the long service medal are iron.

[tyanacek]

The pin catch on the reverse is kind of interesting too.

[tyanacek]

The Hohenzollern House Order is a Godet.

Here is a picture of the markings "J G u S 938'

[P.F.]

Dear Tom,

A fantastic medal bar, and in great condition. Congratulations on this latest acquisition.

Best

Pierce

[Paul R]

What are the odds for a man with this combo having an EK1 as well?

[VtwinVince]

Very nice bar, I love anything with an HOH on it.

[Chris Boonzaier]

What are the odds for a man with this combo having an EK1 as well?

About 100% :-)

[Claudio]

Great bar, Tom!

As I already commented on the WAF, a text book bar of a Senior LW officer. Too bad that it might be to less in order to identify the wearer, if you don't find a picture of him with this bar. Nothing is impossible... I really love this bars with Imperial enameled bling-bling and long service awards. It tells a lot about the original owner of the bar; a long career beginning with WWI (or even before) and ending during WWII.

[Chris Boonzaier]

It is possible that he was not a Flyer in WW1... My wifes greatgrandfather was Infantry in WW1 and Luftwaffe in the 1930s-1944.

[Claudio]

Very much possible... like GFM A. Kesselring he begun his career in the Fussartillerie and also in the twenties he was still an Artillery officer, until 1934 when he went to the Luftwaffe...

:-)

[Chris Boonzaier]

Very much possible... like GFM A. Kesselring he begun his career in the Fussartillerie and also in the twenties he was still an Artillery officer, until 1934 when he went to the Luftwaffe...

:-)

My wifes Great Grandfather was an Infantry Officer in WW1, and a Luftwaffe Doctor in a Felddivision in WW2, He apparently got "brownie points" from the Divisional commander because at Dinner every evening he gave him tips on ground warfare... the Divisional commander had commanded JU52s before taking over a field Division ;-)

[Paul C]

Very nice bar with a chance of Iding the owner. I think you have a very junior WWI officer who entered service after 1915 and stayed in between the wars. You would need to go through a Reichheer Ranglist and find everone who had the HOH3x and Austrian award only and cross reference to a Luftwaffe Ranglist. It would be time consuming but not too hard.

[Dave Danner]

I do not think ID'ing will be possible, though Paul's advice could generate some possibilities. The lack of Landesorden from the smaller German states makes it hard to narrow bars like this down.

• First problem is, we cannot say whether he was even in the army. Many Navy officers, especially Seeflieger, ended up in the Luftwaffe.

• Second, we don't know that he stayed in the Reichsheer and was in the Weimar rank lists. Police time and time as a civilian employee of the Reichswehr (Angestellter im Reichdienst gem. § 56 WVG) also counted toward the Wehrmacht DA

• Third, we really can't say for certain when he entered service. An officer could have served from the early 1900s, gotten out in 1920, and returned as an E-officer in the 1930s and gotten his 18 years that way.

Some Army examples, all with the WHDA2:

• Oberstlt.z.D. Richard Bohnenkamp served in the Prussian Army from 1902 to 1920, retiring as a char. Major, returned to the Wehrmacht in 1935, and was placed z.D. in 1938.

• Oberst Albert Bedenk was a war volunteer in August 1914, went to the police in 1920, and returned to the Wehrmacht in 1935.

• Oberst Wolfgang Graf Bülow von Dennewitz served from 1905 to 1920, retiring as a char. Major, and returned to the Wehrmacht in 1934.

• Generalmajor Werner von Bülow served from 1916 to 1920, and then went into the police, returning to the Wehrmacht in December 1934.

• Oberst Franz Christoffer von Bülow served from 1905 to 1919, retiring as a Rittmeister, and returned to the Wehrmacht in 1935.

• Oberst August Clüver served from 1900 to 1920, retiring as a char. Major, and returned to the Wehrmacht in 1934, missing out on a WHDA1 by a few months.

• Oberst Werner Hoffmann served from 1904 to 1919, retiring as a char. Major, and returned to the Wehrmacht in 1936.

• Oberst Johannes Jahns served from 1903 to 1919, spent two years as a Referent beim Infanterieführer VI from 1925 to 1927, and got his WHDA2 immediately after he returned to the Wehrmacht in 1936.

• Oberst Gustav Klein served from 1904 to 1920, retiring as a char. Major, and returned to the Wehrmacht in 1934.

• Oberst Kurt Kleindienst served from 1914 to 1925, so he actually does show up in a Reichsheer ranklist, but with 11 years of Imperial and RH service, you wouldn't know he was eligible for the WHDA2 after he returned to the Wehrmacht unless you also knew that he was a civilian Sachbearbeiter für Nachrichtenwesen in Wehrkreis I from 1927 to 1933.

• Oberst Sigurd von Kleist served from 1904 to 1920, retiring as a char. Major, and returned to the Wehrmacht in 1936.

• Oberst Günther Klemm was a war volunteer in August 1914, went to the police in 1920, and returned to the Wehrmacht in 1935.

• Oberst Gottfried Mackensen served from 1903 to 1919, retiring as a char. Major, and returned to the Wehrmacht in 1934, first as a civilian and then as a Maj.a.D./Maj.(E).

• Oberst Rudolf Mackensen von Astfeld served from 1903 to 1920, retiring as a char. Major, and returned to the Wehrmacht in 1935.

That's just a sample, but large enough to show that the number of higher-ranking and well-decorated Wehrmacht officers missing from the interwar rank lists is pretty high.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Dave Danner

[Claudio]

Hi Dave,

I also thought that this bar is too tough too identify; I mean just a HHOX and a Austrian MVK3 is not enough to narrow down the search. Furthermore like you said, because this bar has the DA combination for 18 years, that signifies that this officer went back in service in 30ies, but between 1920 and 1934/36 could have been just a state employee or maybe even not that. It could have been possible to ID if there was one WWI bravery award or small state order on it.

But still it's a great medal bar that I would be very interested to have also in my collection. ;-)

C

[tyanacek]

Hello guys,

Thank you for all of the comments and information. I agree that the combination of orders & decorations on this bar is not unique enough to make an identification. That is, without anything short of a miracle. I did start going through the 1924 rank list, just to find some possibilities, but I realize too that many other possibilities would not be listed there for the reasons cited by Dave. In going through the 1924 listing, I checked the Leutnante, Oberleutnante, and Hauptleute/Rittmeister sections. I figured there was no need to check any ranks higher than Hauptmann. I was surprised to find only sixteen officers with the Iron Cross, Hohenzollern House Order-Knight's Cross with Swords, Austrian Military Merit Cross 3rd Class with War Decoration, and no other Imperial orders or decorations.

The officers that I found with the combination were:

Ansat

von Chappuis

Figg

von Hanstein

Hilderbrand

Hoogklimmer

Keiper

Koch

Lentzsch

Marschhausen

von Saucken

Sinnhuber

von Sommerfeld

Weidling

Wosch

Wrede

I just did a quick search, so I may have missed a few.

Now to start checking against the WW2 Luftwaffe Officer listing.

Thanks again & best regards,

Tom

[azyeoman]

Beautiful bar Tom! My sincerest congratulations and I hope you can nail down the recipient.

Edited November 8, 2013 by azyeoman

[Dave Danner]

Hello guys,

Thank you for all of the comments and information. I agree that the combination of orders & decorations on this bar is not unique enough to make an identification. That is, without anything short of a miracle. I did start going through the 1924 rank list, just to find some possibilities, but I realize too that many other possibilities would not be listed there for the reasons cited by Dave. In going through the 1924 listing, I checked the Leutnante, Oberleutnante, and Hauptleute/Rittmeister sections. I figured there was no need to check any ranks higher than Hauptmann. I was surprised to find only sixteen officers with the Iron Cross, Hohenzollern House Order-Knight's Cross with Swords, Austrian Military Merit Cross 3rd Class with War Decoration, and no other Imperial orders or decorations.

The officers that I found with the combination were:

Ansat

von Chappuis

Figg

von Hanstein

Hilderbrand

Hoogklimmer

Keiper

Koch

Lentzsch

Marschhausen

von Saucken

Sinnhuber

von Sommerfeld

Weidling

Wosch

Wrede

I just did a quick search, so I may have missed a few.

Now to start checking against the WW2 Luftwaffe Officer listing.

Thanks again & best regards,

Tom

Tom:

John Ansat - Generalleutnant in the Army

Friedrich Wilhelm v. Chappuis - General der Infanterie

Jobst v. Hanstein - Oberst in the Army

Julian Erich Hildebrand - Generalmajor in the Army

Wilhelm Keiper - Generalmajor in the Army

Johannes Lentzsch - Generalleutnant z.V. in the Army

Werner Marschhausen - Oberst in the Army

Dietrich v. Saucken - General der Panzertruppe

Johann Sinnhuber - General der Artillerie

Hans v. Sommerfeld - Generalleutnant in the Army

Helmuth Weidling - General der Artillerie

Heinrich Wosch - Generalleutnant in the Army

I don't have anything on Figg, Georg Hoogklimmer or Heinz Wrede in the Wehrmacht, although none are in the Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries by deZeng and Stankey. There are way too many officers named Koch in the Luftwaffe to narrow that one down.

Dave

[Claudio]

I couple of these high officers are really quite big shots and very well known generals.... like von Chappuis (noble origins, he served in Gren Garde Regt 5 as Fähnrich, RK-Träger later commited suicide) and especially von Saucken (RK mit Eichenlaub, Schwerter und Brillanten... They had surely more medals on their bars... ;-)

V. Saucken medal bar was on sale on a German auction http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/56578-medal-bar-of-general-der-panzertruppen-dietrich-von-saucken/... however I am not quite sure it was really his bar.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Claudio

[Dave Danner]

Indeed. Even the lesser known ones had other known awards. Jobst v. Hanstein. in charge of defenses in Marseilles against French forces in August 1944, was also an RK and DKiG recipient. Probably the only reason he was not a general was that he had a break in service from 1929 to 1933. But most relevant for Tom's bar is that these are all known Army officers, so they can be eliminated.

By the way, Figg apparently changed his name sometime after the war. He was "Fick" in World War I. Reichswehr rank lists have him as "Dr. Figg", so he must have gotten a doctorate after the war too. I couldn't find a matching Figg in the lists of doctorates in the Jahresverzeichnis der deutschen Hochschulschriften. There were several Ficks, though I can't say for certain which one he was.

[tyanacek]

Tom:

John Ansat - Generalleutnant in the Army

Friedrich Wilhelm v. Chappuis - General der Infanterie

Jobst v. Hanstein - Oberst in the Army

Julian Erich Hildebrand - Generalmajor in the Army

Wilhelm Keiper - Generalmajor in the Army

Johannes Lentzsch - Generalleutnant z.V. in the Army

Werner Marschhausen - Oberst in the Army

Dietrich v. Saucken - General der Panzertruppe

Johann Sinnhuber - General der Artillerie

Hans v. Sommerfeld - Generalleutnant in the Army

Helmuth Weidling - General der Artillerie

Heinrich Wosch - Generalleutnant in the Army

I don't have anything on Figg, Georg Hoogklimmer or Heinz Wrede in the Wehrmacht, although none are in the Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries by deZeng and Stankey. There are way too many officers named Koch in the Luftwaffe to narrow that one down.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Thank you for being such a work saver!

But wasn't Johannes Lentzsch a Luftwaffe General during WW2? In fact, I see him as having the same medal bar as my unknown except that Lentzsch would have the Luftwaffe 25/12 combination rather than the 18/4.

Thanks again & best regards,

Tom

[tyanacek]

I couple of these high officers are really quite big shots and very well known generals.... like von Chappuis (noble origins, he served in Gren Garde Regt 5 as Fähnrich, RK-Träger later commited suicide) and especially von Saucken (RK mit Eichenlaub, Schwerter und Brillanten... They had surely more medals on their bars... ;-)

V. Saucken medal bar was on sale on a German auction http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/56578-medal-bar-of-general-der-panzertruppen-dietrich-von-saucken/... however I am not quite sure it was really his bar.

Hi Claudio,

Yes! And how about Helmuth Weidling? Another big name for sure. It is really quite an education to go through these ranlk lists, looking for officers with a certain combination of orders/decorations.

Thank you also for the link to the supposed von Saucken medal bar. That could very well be his. It's interesting that the ÖM3K is placed after the Hindenburg Cross and before the long service decorations. But it looks like the placement is correct on his Feldspange.

Thank you & best regards,

Tom

[Dave Danner]

Hi Dave,

Thank you for being such a work saver!

But wasn't Johannes Lentzsch a Luftwaffe General during WW2? In fact, I see him as having the same medal bar as my unknown except that Lentzsch would have the Luftwaffe 25/12 combination rather than the 18/4.

Thanks again & best regards,

Tom

You're right. My mistake with Lentzsch. Writing too quickly, not proofreading.

[Claudio]

Hi Claudio,

Yes! And how about Helmuth Weidling? Another big name for sure. It is really quite an education to go through these ranlk lists, looking for officers with a certain combination of orders/decorations.

Thank you also for the link to the supposed von Saucken medal bar. That could very well be his. It's interesting that the ÖM3K is placed after the Hindenburg Cross and before the long service decorations. But it looks like the placement is correct on his Feldspange.

Thank you & best regards,

Tom

Yes dear Tom... Helmuth Weidling (RK mit Eichenlaub) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_Weidling what an interesting career... he begins in a Fieldartillery Regiment to go to WWI and be on a airship.... WW2 almost exclusively on the Eastern front, from Regimental to Panzercorps commander and finally last commanding General for the defense of Berlin and died in captivity in Russia, 10 years after the war. There's a very nice picture of him with his "Felspange"...

About Saucken bar... yes it could have been the real deal, but to mee it didn't really matter... I didn't like the assembly work, the disposition of the medals and plus you had to pay a premium because it was of a famous highly decorated General, but neither photos or documents came with it.

C