Unknown award Please help

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

Hello, does anyone know what this award (circled red) is? The man is Konteradmiral Clamor von Trotha.

I think it is the Kriegsverdienstkreuz (1939) I. Klasse mit Schwertern, but other people I asked are not sure. So I'm seeking for a 2nd opinion.

I think it doesn't make sense it's a foreign award. The shape and look fits with the KVK1, only the Swords are not visible, but that may be because of the photo.

Looking at his ribbon bar, this is my ID of the ribbons:

- EK II
- KVK2x
- Anhalt Friedrich Kreuz
- Ehrenkreuz fur Frontkampfer
- Wehrmacht DA

If my ID of the ribbon bar is correct, I think the KVK1x is most probable.

Please share your opinions.

[laurentius]

Dear Kriegsmarine Admiral,

looking at the award in the picture I believe this award to be the Croatian Order of the Crown of King Zvonimir.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

1 hour ago, laurentius said:

Dear Kriegsmarine Admiral,

looking at the award in the picture I believe this award to be the Croatian Order of the Crown of King Zvonimir.

Kind regards, Laurentius

To me it makes no sense it's the Order of the Crown of King Zvonimir. And it doesn't look like it. That Order had only Stars for the 1st Class and the Grand Cross. And these were larger than the one on the photo.

[laurentius]

This is the version I believe that the Konteradmiral is wearing, although in your picture without swords. It's only a tiny bit bigger than a regular EK1

[Dave Danner]

Nothing immediately comes to mind for me. The date for his Friedrichkreuz, by the way, is 6.5.1918.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Dave Danner

[Matthew Macleod]

Purely a conjecture based on a vague photograph but it might be a breast star to the order of St. Olaf.

[Uffz. Rohleder]

On 01/03/2019 at 13:48, laurentius said:

Dear Kriegsmarine Admiral,

looking at the award in the picture I believe this award to be the Croatian Order of the Crown of King Zvonimir.

Kind regards, Laurentius

+1

 

After spending some time with the photos and looking for a similar and possible award I would also say that he's wearing the Order of the Crown of King Zvonimir 2nd class breast Cross with Swords. 

Imo the KVK2 aren't possible - you can see the high Medaillon with attached swords that only matches with the King Zvonimir. 

[Matthew Macleod]

Aside from the badge in the pic having tapered arms, where would he qualify for a Croatian medal introduced in May 1941 being posted in Wilhelmshaven and  later Norway (1943) until 1945?

[922F]

The apparent cross arm size and placement may suggest Zvonimir and the piece seems to be white enamel.  However,  I do not see the stylized twist design on cross arms Zvonimir badges display and the center seems too large [extends to edge of cross arm divergence].    Further, Matthew mentioned the cross arm taper which does not conform to Zvonimir format.

Did von Trotha have a Bulgarian connection?  Size of the center, cross arm taper, apparent sword blade between cross arms plus glint shape in center reminds me of Bulgarian Military Bravery Order 3rd class, lst grade. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by 922F
spelchek

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

On 06/03/2019 at 05:17, 922F said:

The apparent cross arm size and placement may suggest Zvonimir and the piece seems to be white enamel.  However,  I do not see the stylized twist design on cross arms Zvonimir badges display and the center seems too large [extends to edge of cross arm divergence].    Further, Matthew mentioned the cross arm taper which does not conform to Zvonimir format.

Did von Trotha have a Bulgarian connection?  Size of the center, cross arm taper, apparent sword blade between cross arms plus glint shape in center reminds me of Bulgarian Military Bravery Order 3rd class, lst grade. 

No known Bulgarian connections. 

So you don't think it's the War Merit Cross 1st Class with Swords?

I can't see it being the Zvonimir Order. But that's just my opinion, maybe I'm wrong.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Kriegsmarine Admiral

[922F]

KVK1x might be most probable but center disk seems very pronounced and thicker than most KVK1s.  What about simple KVK 1 [no swords]?  Unlikely for an Admiral.....

I tend to think that it's not a Zvonimir for reasons outlined above. 

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

Dear fellow members, I recently found a better version of this "photo" of Clamor von Trotha. It reveals it's not a photo at all. Rather it's a drawing/painting. I believe this is the reason why the KVK1x looks a bit odd. However, it most definitely is a KVK1x because the 2nd Class can also be seen on the ribbon bar.

 

I am now having trouble identifying the award directly below the KVK1x. Could it be the Reiterabzeichen or the Sportabzeichen, or something else? Any help would be appreciated.

[speedytop]

Hi,

 

I say, that it is a SA-Sportabzeichen (SA-Wehrabzeichen)

 

Uwe

[BlackcowboyBS]

Though question! I am still not convinced, that this is a KvK1X. Well the other is also hard to decide. My first impression was: Reiterabzeichen. But to be honest from the look it could also be the Sportabzeichen der SA, but was he ever a member of the SA? I would doubt that untill somebody proofed me wrong, so I vote for Reiterabzeichen.

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

He was not a member of the SA. I'm pretty sure it's not the SA-Sportabzeichen. I also lean towards the Reiterabzeichen. Thanks.

Regarding the KVK1x, like I told you, the award looks odd because this is a drawing and not a photo of Trotha. It's the KVK1x for sure.

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

11 minutes ago, Simius Rex said:

 

KVK1X for sure??  I would strongly urge you to carefully study the design of the KVK1X before making such a statement because the cross you circled in red on the photograph (not the drawing) doesn't even come close to the form of the KVK1X. 

 

The KVK1X has slender maltese-arms with a gentle taper.  It has massive swords with massive grips and crossguards that project outward almost as far as the arms.  They are a significant design-element of this cross and are discernable a mile away. 

 

In contrast, the cross on the photo has fat maltese-arms with a wide taper and very petite swords that barely project past the center medallion.  It looks far more like a Lippe Steckkreuz than a KVK1X or a Zvonimir, (even though it is probably not Lippe, but at least it would have been a more plausible guess.)

 

I understand what you are trying to say. But the two photos with the red circles in my first post are also the same drawing as I posted yesterday, just in worse quality. Given that they are drawings, the KVK1x is not a one-for-one identical copy of the real KVK1x. It's because someone drew it by hand. That's why it doesn't quite look like it, but it is the KVK1x.

[speedytop]

OK, and I say once more, that it is the SA-Wehrabzeichen.

 

Wikipedia: "On 15 February 1935, Hitler decreed that the badge be officially recognized. It was thereafter issued in three grades (bronze, silver, and gold). No longer was the physical fitness badge to be awarded only to SA members."

 

Please see the picture, and compare it with a Reiterabzeichen.

[GdC26]

On 11/08/2022 at 19:40, speedytop said:

OK, and I say once more, that it is the SA-Wehrabzeichen.

 

Wikipedia: "On 15 February 1935, Hitler decreed that the badge be officially recognized. It was thereafter issued in three grades (bronze, silver, and gold). No longer was the physical fitness badge to be awarded only to SA members."

 

Please see the picture, and compare it with a Reiterabzeichen.

The "Reiterabzeichen" or "Sportabzeichen" in the drawing has a pronounced protrusion on top that is broader than the vertical line underneath it. Its shape reminds me of that of the Hessen Kriegerehrenzichen, but I did not find any immediate evidence that Throta (who was born in Sachsen-Altenburg) received it or was a citizen of Hessen in 1917/18.

 

Like Simi, I'm also not sold on hte KvK1 theory. I initially liked the thought of a St. Olav (not an uncommon interwar award for ranking Kriegsmarine officers, and one that would probably have fitted his rank of Korvettenkapitän from 1937 onwards) but on checking believe the commander's star of that order is too large to fit the bill of the cross depicted. 

 

drawings tend to focus on faces, and are not always a good source for identification of orders and decorations. Unless someone finds an actual picture of von Trotha properly showing his left lower breast, I guess this will all remain conjecture.

 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

Edited August 14, 2022 by GdC26