filfoster Posted August 18, 2019 Posted August 18, 2019 (edited) I just acquired a 'museum specimen' of the St George Jubilee medal of 1889. This medal appears on the medal bars for various Bavarian high-and-mighties like Rupprecht, Alfons, etc. . My sources say it had precedence over the Military Max Joseph order on the medal bar and the photos available online seem to confirm this. I have two questions: 1. Why was this medal so highly regarded? It's a Jubilee medal, and rather ordinary looking, too. 2. Where in God's name will I get more ribbon to mount it? My online searches have been fruitless and there's no 'look-alike' ribbon among world medals that I've yet found. Edited August 18, 2019 by filfoster grammer 1
filfoster Posted August 18, 2019 Author Posted August 18, 2019 Please tell me how I can obtain a meter of this?
filfoster Posted August 18, 2019 Author Posted August 18, 2019 Does anyone know why this medal had such high precedence?
saschaw Posted August 18, 2019 Posted August 18, 2019 (edited) I'm not sure if there is an "official" answer to the first question, I haven't found something by now other than the pure fact it had highest precedence on Bavarian bars. It might possibly refer to the paramount position the House Equestrian Order of Saint George held - keep in mind, this came in several classes and even the lowest, knight, was worn as a neck badge, accompanied by a breast star! This isn't our standard merit order, but a society connecting Bavaria's old, high nobility... However, many photos even of Bavarian princes (and rulers?) proof this rule of precedence was often ignored, not only if the medal was combined with the very high esteemed Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden's knight's cross. It might have seemed ridiculous even to some of them! Edited May 19, 2023 by saschaw
Utgardloki Posted August 18, 2019 Posted August 18, 2019 (edited) I am no expert in Bavarian orders, but if the medal was considered part of the St. Georgs-Order, and no other higher insignia was worn on the bar it makes sense that it is on the first place, although a Max Joseph knight is much more prestigious. I don't know how the precedence in Bavarian orders exactly worked, but in Austria for example a Franz Joseph Order Commander- cross ranged above the Iron Crown iii class although the Order of the Iron Crown ranged above the Franz Joseph Order. So they could have also just ranged the for example Max Joseph knight above this jubilee medal, but these are just my thoughts Edited August 18, 2019 by Utgardloki
spolei Posted August 18, 2019 Posted August 18, 2019 The awarded medals were made of gold, not silver guilt. It is a very rare medal and the most offers are copys.
filfoster Posted August 18, 2019 Author Posted August 18, 2019 I felt lucky to get this one as I've never seen another replica one and certainly couldn't afford a real one, particularly just to hang on a display uniform. Here is an excerpt from another forum providing the Bavarian precedence: ) St. George Order's 1889 Jubilee Medal 2) Military Max Joseph Order 3) Military Medical Decorations 4) Military Merit Order with Swords 5) Military Merit Medal (later changed to Bravery Medals) 6) Military Merit Cross with Swords 7) Military Merit Order for peacetime ? Merit Order of the Bavarian Crown 9) Merit Order of Saint Michael 10) Maximilian Order for Science and Art 11) Ludwig Order 11a) Military Merit Cross for peacetime (not mentioned) 12) Merit Cross for the Years 1870/71 13) Lifesaving Medal 14) Ludwig Medal 15) Merit Cross for Voluntary Care of the Sick 16) Prussian Iron Cross 2nd Class 16a) Ludwig Cross of 1916 (statutory precedence not found) 17) Bavarian Jubilee Medals 18) Orders of other German states 19) 1870/71 War Medal 20) 1866 War Cross 21) 1849 Campaign Medal (Pfalz rebellion suppression) 22) 1849 War Cross (Imperial contingent against Denmark) 23) Colonial Medal, Southwest Africa Medal, China Medal 24) Long Service Awards 25) Voluntary Care of the Sick Long Service Awards 26) Medals of other German states 27) Non German Orders, Decorations, and Medals If anyone sees another copy offered, please let me know. I'd like a 'spare'. 2
filfoster Posted August 18, 2019 Author Posted August 18, 2019 (edited) Vernon's Collector's Guide lists this medal under the category of "Military and House Order of St. George" and shows it being awarded in both gold and silver. Edited August 18, 2019 by filfoster
spolei Posted August 19, 2019 Posted August 19, 2019 You are right. 75 medals were made of gold, 11 medals were produced in silver guilt. The medal was awarded by Prinzregent luitpold on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of his membership in the Order of Saint George on 15th dec 1889. Only the members, who take part at this jubilee, were be awarded.
filfoster Posted August 20, 2019 Author Posted August 20, 2019 If anyone has a copy they'd part with, or finds a copy for sale, please let me know. I'd like to have another one for a medal bar project. Thanks!
waldo Posted August 22, 2019 Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) Very interesting topic. I once wrote a post about the Georgs medal in the SDA, but in German. Here is the link: http://h2385226.stratoserver.net/wbb4/index.php?thread/61927-bayern-st-georgs-medaille-des-haus-ritterordens-vom-heiligen-georg/ There are many fakes of this medal. To distinguish between an original and a forgery you should compare exactly with the pictures in my article. There are only originals shown. Only the golden medals were awarded, the silver medals could be purchased and worn for donning the field uniform. Of these, however, only 11 pieces have been embossed. A gold medal was made from 15 ducats of gold and was therefore very heavy. They were minted in the Royal Bavarian Mint in Munich. The band rings were made by Eduard Quellhorst in Munich and most were marked with the manufacturer's stamp EQ. The Bavarian wearing regulations stipulate that the Georg Medal should always be given first place by civilians or military personnel. Here is a Google translation of the statutes Law and Ordinance for the Kingdom of Bavaria, No. 50, December 24, 1889, pages 665 - 666: Supreme ordinance, the foundation of a medal commemorating the celebrated on 8 December 1889 main festival of the house = Equestrian Order of St. George concerning. In the name of His Majesty King Luitpold, by the grace of God royal Prince of Bavaria, Regent We have decided, in commemoration of the main feast of the house of St. George, on the 8th of December, 1889, on which day fifty years have passed, since We entered the Order by Our Father, King Louis I, who is resting in God was taken to donate a medal and to prescribe over it what follows: §. 1. This decoration, which is "St. George's Medal "can only be members of the House = Order of St. George. We give it first to all the members of the order who were present at the religious festival on December 8, 1889. §. 2. The indefinite in a golden medal, their front of our bust image surrounded in the large master of the bayer of the luitpold, who portrayed St. George on horseback in battle with the lynx. The inscription on the reverse side reads: To commemorate the 8th of December, 1889 §. 3. The St. George's medal is worn on a sky blue silk ribbon with white and other border on the left breast. §. 4. The decrees of the St. George Medal shall be issued by us personally executed decrees. §. 5. The St. George's Medal remains after the demise of the holder the survivors circumstances. Given to Munich, 15 December 1889. Luitpold Prince of Bavaria of the Kingdom of Bavaria Verweser Quietude. Crailsheim. At the Most High Command: The General = Secretary: Frhr. v. Volderndorff Edited August 22, 2019 by waldo
filfoster Posted August 22, 2019 Author Posted August 22, 2019 Thank you, Waldo! That answers definitively the question of precedence. Perfect! I would only be interested in purchasing a copy because I am not a medal collector. I replicate uniforms and make medal and ribbon bars to complete the uniform displays. I hope to find another copy of this medal sometime. I would certainly welcome any help from members of this forum to find one. Thank you. All my questions have been answered. This forum is a terrific resource.
waldo Posted August 22, 2019 Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) Hello, I am glad that your questions have been answered. So far I have only seen copies that were offered as originals and are therefore very expensive. Should I find a cheap copy, I will write to you. greetings from Bavaria Walter Edited August 22, 2019 by waldo
filfoster Posted August 22, 2019 Author Posted August 22, 2019 Walter: Thank you very much. I would be very grateful.
saschaw Posted August 26, 2019 Posted August 26, 2019 On 19/08/2019 at 01:04, filfoster said: Vernon's Collector's Guide lists this medal under the category of "Military and House Order of St. George" and shows it being awarded in both gold and silver. I think it is important to point out Vernon's Collector Guide is wrong if they claim this medal was "awarded in both gold and silver". It had one grad only, GOLD, and did never come in silver. The eleven mentioned pieces by spolei were silver gilt, and they were never awarded, but officially struck replacement medals for the wearers that had previously received medals in gold. Just to have this accurate here, if books aren't.
waldo Posted August 27, 2019 Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) Hello Sascha, there you are right of course, I have already pointed out above. ? Schön, dass Du wieder öfters “online” bist. Viele Grüße Walter Edited August 27, 2019 by waldo
Alex K Posted August 28, 2019 Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) Just for interest, attached images of two medal bars attributed to Prince Alfons of Bavaria, each shows the St Georges medal, given the very low numbers of the gold version made, are these likely to be "Gold" or "silver gilt" wearers copies, taking into account who he was? regards Edited August 28, 2019 by Alex K
waldo Posted August 28, 2019 Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) Servus Alex, I think that the upper Georg medal is a reproduction in gold. I do not know the lower one at all. 2017 was also at Hermann Historica a medalbar by Alfons with a Georg medal on offer. Here's a receipt where Alfons ordered 2 Georg medals in gold. The medal, which was included in the lot, I like the execution also not. This should be a replica medal. However, in a rebuilt or recreated medal neither the diecutter Scharff nor the A B for Alois Börsch should be seen on it, since it is not a re-stamping with the original stamping dies nor a casting of an original medal. I think that there is a lot of mischief going on. First the pictures of Hermann Historica: For comparison an original Georgian medal from my collection. Consider the elaboration in detail. Here is the link to the original Georgsmedaille of the Museum "Staatliche Münzsammlung in Munich". https://www.kenom.de/objekt/record_DE-MUS-099114_kenom_181272/2/ Edited August 28, 2019 by waldo 1
waldo Posted August 28, 2019 Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) In the following picture one can see, how high and plastically the stamp of Professor Scharff was worked out. This means a lot of effort, especially when embossing the medals. I think that this medal is one of the highlights of the stamp cutting and embossing art of the 19th and 20th centuries. Note also that Luitpold wears the Deputy "Ornat" of the GeorgsO, unlike the Rescue Medal. Edited August 28, 2019 by waldo 1
Alex K Posted August 28, 2019 Posted August 28, 2019 Hi, thanks for the interesting details, I agree that when you look at the originals examples the quality is amazing!, Regards
filfoster Posted August 28, 2019 Author Posted August 28, 2019 I hope a copy will come to market, offered as a copy instead of a real one.
waldo Posted May 18, 2020 Posted May 18, 2020 https://www.ebay.de/itm/Bayrische-Medaille-Luitpold-Prinz-Regent-zur-Erinnerung-an-den-8-Dez-1889/383550417170?hash=item594d62e912:g:pY4AAOSwR-tewXOp
Schießplatzmeister Posted May 19, 2020 Posted May 19, 2020 Hello Waldo, Thank you for providing the link to this cast forgery. The quality of this forgery is good. For years, many collectors were deceived by these finely-cast pieces. I hope that members here study it, so that they avoid this type of counterfeit. It should also be noted that this isn't the only medal forgery like this. Many other types of medal forgeries have been made like this. They are sometimes still described as "original" pieces. Best regards, 3
ccj Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Very informative thread and answers questions I had but never asked.
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