WW1 German Medal Group & research

[Langers]

Here is my latest addition: it is a medal group belonging to Alexander Paul Kahle, Infantry Regiment 52.

(Above: A. Kahle, c.1920)

The Group consists of:

Iron Cross II Class (Prussia)

Order of Military Merit Cross I Class with Swords & Crown (Bavaria)

Merit Cross II Class (Mecklenburg)

Military Friedrich Cross (Anhalt) 

Flanders Cross (Antwerpen, Yser, Ypern, Somme, Flandernschlacht, Marnesschlacht, Durchbruchsschlacht, Verdun, Champagne clasps)

Regimental Commemorative Cross (JNF. RGT. 52 clasp)

Additionally:

Merit Cross for War Aid (Prussia)

1914-1918 Hindenburg Medal 

1915-1918 Bulgarian War Medal

Wound Badge (Black)

Alexander P. Kahle was born in Berlin in 1886. He attended school to 8th grade and started working in 1902 in the burgeoning film industry. He later worked as a stills photographer for Nestor, Decla, Maxine & UFA. 

He joined the Imperial German Army on the outbreak of the war with Infantry Regiment No.52, 10th Infantry Brigade, 5th Division. Details can be read at: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Division_(German_Empire)

He married Hedwig Clara Lena Peste on 5th May 1916 in Cottbus, Germany, and by the end of his service had been promoted to NCO & decorated following surviving over 180 hand-to-hand engagements.

(Above: A. Kahle, c.1915)

Their daughter Ursula was born in Berlin on 19th October 1920, while Alexander was working  with UFA. Alexander & his family emigrated to the USA in 1923, from Hamburg to New York, on board the Manchuria & arrived on 11th November 1923. 
They ended up in Sunnyvale, CA, in early 1924 & by the years end Kahle declared his intention to naturalise & moved to Los Angeles, CA. He got a job as a stills photographer for Pathè.

His IMBD page makes excellent reading for the films he worked on, including King Kong (1933), Gunga Din (1939), Citizen Kane (1941), & She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (1949).
More can be explored at: https://m.imdb.com/name/nm0434731/

https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2bbc7b2526

His daughter, Ursula, married Ensign William Rea Heath, Mercantile Marine, and his medal bar was included in this group. Her obituary makes interesting reading (particularly her story in 1939. More can be read at: https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/lamonitor/obituary.aspx?n=ursula-heath-kahle&pid=177255854

(Above: William R. Heath’s medal bar, including the Atlantic, Mid-East/Mediterranean, & Pacific zones bars)

Kahle’s awards and accolades in the film industry can be read where much of this research came from: https://www.google.com/amp/s/ladailymirror.com/2015/02/16/mary-mallory-hollywood-heights-alex-kahle-shoots-the-angles/amp/

(Above: A. Kahle at the Oscars, c.1940s)
Alexander Kahle died on 26 August 1968. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Langers
Typo

[Deruelle]

Hi

Congrats for your last purchase. Very interesting story. Thanks for sharing it with us

Christophe

[Langers]

1 minute ago, Deruelle said:

Hi

Congrats for your last purchase. Very interesting story. Thanks for sharing it with us

Christophe

Thank you kindly! ?

[chuck]

Great bar the 1st Class BMVK is very rare (150-160 awards), and greatly faked on a lot of web sites.

 

Regards

Chuck

[waldo]

Servus from Bavaria,

actually I don't want to depress the positive mood but I'm not that 
enthusiastic about the MVK 1 with the crown and swords. This is an 
MVK from the manufacturer Deschler. 

MVK 1 Kr. X were only made by the manufacturers Hemmerle and Leser. 
There is only one early form of this rare MVK per manufacturer. I 
am showing the originals of the award, which has only been given 
146 times. 8 of them only existed on the war ribbon. 138 were 
warded on the so-called "Beamtenband", the ribbon for war merit. 

Originals only have to look like this, so only like this! The VS 
medallions were made of gold. There was no gold-plated silver. 
The manufacturing quality of the 1st grade was significantly better 
than that of the 2nd and 3rd grades. The MVKs were specially well 
gilded, maybe even fire gilded, and the edges were reworked. The 
enamel of particularly high quality. 

The cases were lined in red, only the manufacturer's markings in 
the lid were different.

Bild 1 = Etui Leser
Bild 2 = Medaillon Leser
Bild 3 = Etui Hemmerle
Bild 4 = MVK Leser
Bild 5 = MVK Hemmerle

Now the cautious question, where did you get the information that 
Kahle had a 1st class crown swords?

Many greetings
Walter

Edited March 7, 2021 by waldo

[waldo]

I forgot, Hemmerle VS-medallions in 1st grade were always made in three parts 
like an MVO.

[Deruelle]

Hi Waldo,

 

Many thanks Waldo for the explanation. it's very informative

Christophe

 

[Langers]

4 hours ago, waldo said:

    211.14 kB · 0 downloads  Servus from Bavaria,

actually I don't want to depress the positive mood but I'm not that 
enthusiastic about the MVK 1 with the crown and swords. This is an 
MVK from the manufacturer Deschler. 

MVK 1 Kr. X were only made by the manufacturers Hemmerle and Leser. 
There is only one early form of this rare MVK per manufacturer. I 
am showing the originals of the award, which has only been given 
146 times. 8 of them only existed on the war ribbon. 138 were 
warded on the so-called "Beamtenband", the ribbon for war merit. 

Originals only have to look like this, so only like this! The VS 
medallions were made of gold. There was no gold-plated silver. 
The manufacturing quality of the 1st grade was significantly better 
than that of the 2nd and 3rd grades. The MVKs were specially well 
gilded, maybe even fire gilded, and the edges were reworked. The 
enamel of particularly high quality. 

The cases were lined in red, only the manufacturer's markings in 
the lid were different.

Bild 1 = Etui Leser
Bild 2 = Medaillon Leser
Bild 3 = Etui Hemmerle
Bild 4 = MVK Leser
Bild 5 = MVK Hemmerle

Now the cautious question, where did you get the information that 
Kahle had a 1st class crown swords?

Many greetings
Walter

Thanks for your input here. 
To my knowledge, the group is all attributed to Kahle; the first photo of him clearly shows him displaying the complete group.

He emigrated to America in 1923, taking the group with him, so, to me, the provenance of the groups originality is there.

I can not access the rolls to check if he is on there, and would love to know if he is indeed in it.

All the best,

Chris

[waldo]

Hello Chris,

I have now checked again, a "Kahle" did not receive any MVK in WWI. 
No matter what first name. How sure will it be that the 
above-mentioned "Kahle" is really shown in the picture?

Edited March 7, 2021 by waldo

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

Waldo has some good points. But are we differentiating between War time production and Postwar?

I have a set of docs where a soldier wrote to the war ministry to get an award replaced, they wrote back they had none, but there were a number of retailers, medal makers where he could buy a replacement.

I am going to go out on a limb here ans say the 1st pic was taken quite some time after the war, probably when he was already in the USA? The instutution of the Marinekreuz was september 1921, so awards from 1922? The Marinekreuz and regt Medal shows a bar padder, which is not bad, I like the proud padder bars.

I would imagine in 1920s Hollywood being the exotic ex German soldier, he probably actually wore the bar on may occasions.

So depending on the source of the item shown, either a postwar put together with a postwar deschler piece (if they existed) .. or a previous owner/collector exchanged the medals.

As to whether he received one... I agree... very unusual... maybe he recieved a 2nd class and he wanted something more blingy... which invites the question... for a medal so rare... where would he have got one??

Very interesting piece and story IMHO!

 

I would say from the 1940s pic and the early one, eyes, nose and caterpillar eyebrows may be a natch... more info here.... https://stereoworld.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/SW_V29_3.pdf

Although interestingly enough... the article in the link above has a starnge cooincidence... a man who recognised Kahle for bayonetting him at mons... and the same story, but for Meuse Argonne... so "Americanised"

[waldo]

Servus Chris,

the IR 51 was probably not a Bavarian regiment. Between 1914 and 1920 
I did not find any MVK 1, 2 or 3 awarded to  "Kahle". 
Also no award to a non-Bavarian.

[Langers]

5 minutes ago, waldo said:

Servus Chris,

the IR 51 was probably not a Bavarian regiment. Between 1914 and 1920 
I did not find any MVK 1, 2 or 3 awarded to  "Kahle". 
Also no award to a non-Bavarian.

He was in IR 52. I believe they were Brandenbergers (he may have ended up later in the war with them).

Do you have access to the rolls? 
All the best,

Chris

[waldo]

I know someone who has access to all awards of the MVO and MVK. 
He didn't find a Kahle. I also have to go back to the VOBl. 
1914 to 1920 checked. No Kahle is mentioned here either.

Edited March 7, 2021 by waldo

[Chris Boonzaier]

Ahhh... but no Kahle being on the rolls and no Kahle ever having worn one are 2 different things ?

 

 

 

As an interesting test,

 

Could you ask him to check out a Prussian in IR47 Kurt (?) Hartmann and a 10er Jäger Johann Schlote?

I would be interested to see if all were listed.

[waldo]

Oh sorry, my english is not good and the google translator may 
have translated it incorrectly. Ich frage ihn mal.

 

Did the Peuße get a Bavarian award?

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by waldo

[Chris Boonzaier]

23 minutes ago, waldo said:

Oh sorry, my english is not good and the google translator may 
have translated it incorrectly. Ich frage ihn mal.

 

Did the Peuße get a Bavarian award?

 

Hi,

 

beide MVK 3 klasse, Hartmann with crown and swords, Schlote with swords

[Langers]

1 hour ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Hi,

Waldo has some good points. But are we differentiating between War time production and Postwar?

I have a set of docs where a soldier wrote to the war ministry to get an award replaced, they wrote back they had none, but there were a number of retailers, medal makers where he could buy a replacement.

I am going to go out on a limb here ans say the 1st pic was taken quite some time after the war, probably when he was already in the USA? The instutution of the Marinekreuz was september 1921, so awards from 1922? The Marinekreuz and regt Medal shows a bar padder, which is not bad, I like the proud padder bars.

I would imagine in 1920s Hollywood being the exotic ex German soldier, he probably actually wore the bar on may occasions.

So depending on the source of the item shown, either a postwar put together with a postwar deschler piece (if they existed) .. or a previous owner/collector exchanged the medals.

As to whether he received one... I agree... very unusual... maybe he recieved a 2nd class and he wanted something more blingy... which invites the question... for a medal so rare... where would he have got one??

Very interesting piece and story IMHO!

 

I would say from the 1940s pic and the early one, eyes, nose and caterpillar eyebrows may be a natch... more info here.... https://stereoworld.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/SW_V29_3.pdf

Although interestingly enough... the article in the link above has a starnge cooincidence... a man who recognised Kahle for bayonetting him at mons... and the same story, but for Meuse Argonne... so "Americanised"

Hi Chris

Very interesting points here! 
 

Personally, I don’t doubt the originality of the MVO (it might be a later addition of his, maybe a a replacement), but it adds to his interesting story

Thanks for the article, I was looking for that!!

[Chris Boonzaier]

13 minutes ago, Langers said:

Hi Chris

Very interesting points here! 
 

Personally, I don’t doubt the originality of the MVO (it might be a later addition of his, maybe a a replacement), but it adds to his interesting story

Thanks for the article, I was looking for that!!

Indeed... he must have had an interesting life. I am sure the medal bar impressed quite a few in the film industry when worn to evening parties...

[spolei]

Hello Chris,
the Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 47 is called:
Infanterie-Regiment König Ludwig III von Bayern (2. Niederschlesisches) Nr. 47
The bavarian king was owner of this regiment and a few of its soldiers would be awarded with MVK/MVO
 

[Chris Boonzaier]

1 hour ago, spolei said:

Hello Chris,
the Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 47 is called:
Infanterie-Regiment König Ludwig III von Bayern (2. Niederschlesisches) Nr. 47
The bavarian king was owner of this regiment and a few of its soldiers would be awarded with MVK/MVO
 

Yup, and the guy in Question was on the regt stab, but I was just curious to see if all the Non Bavarians were on the roll or if the bavarians just said to the regt kommandeur "award 20 crosses" and left it at that...

[Langers]

50 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Yup, and the guy in Question was on the regt stab, but I was just curious to see if all the Non Bavarians were on the roll or if the bavarians just said to the regt kommandeur "award 20 crosses" and left it at that...

Good point ?

[VtwinVince]

This medal bar looks very familiar, I've seen it somewhere before.

[laurentius]

5 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:

This medal bar looks very familiar, I've seen it somewhere before.

You are correct, if I'm not mistaken it is one of the older thread of GMIC. Nice to see some things resurface after a while.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Langers]

On 07/03/2021 at 17:49, laurentius said:

You are correct, if I'm not mistaken it is one of the older thread of GMIC. Nice to see some things resurface after a while.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Out of curiosity, would you know how I could find it? 

Cheers

Chris 

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello,

If I am not mistaken, this grouping was for sale on Ebay recently.  And, if I recall correctly, the seller mentioned that the missing pieces had been "replaced".  But, my memory may not serve me correctly.  It is obvious to me that the group did belong to the NCO in the first photo.  At some point however the awards at the 2nd and 3rd positions on the group were removed.  The pieces in the 2nd and 3rd positions now may never have been awarded to the NCO in the photo who was the owner of the group.

Regardless of the two pieces in question, it is a very nice group with an interesting history.  Congratulations on acquiring it.

Best regards,