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17-я дивизия была одним из самых смешанных подразделений немецкой армии, сформированной путем слияния контингентов ганзейских городов с контингентами Великого княжества Мекленбургского. 33-я пехотная бригада дивизии состояла из контингентов из Гамбурга и Бремена (и до формирования 162-го пехотного полка в 1897 году - Любекского полка).
34-я пехотная бригада дивизии (великий герцог Мекленбургский) состояла из пехотных контингентов великих княжеств Мекленбург-Шверинский и Мекленбург-Стрелицкий.
Дивизионная кавалерийская бригада была 17-й (великий герцог Мекленбургский) кавалерийской бригадой с двумя драгунскими полками из Мекленбурга-Шверина и в разное время в своей истории прикрепленными к прусской кавалерии.
17-я артиллерийская бригада состояла из полка из Гольштейна и полка из двух великих княжеств Мекленбург.

№ 34. Пехотная бригада.
 Мекленбургский гренадерский полк № 89 (1668 человек (на 1914 г.), 204 убитых во франко-прусской войне)
 Мекленбургский фюзильский полк № 90 (1694 человека в 1870 году, 300 погибших) 01.10.1867
 Mecklenburgisches Jäger-Bataillon Nr. 14 (794 человека в 1870 г., 66 погибших)
 кавалерийская бригада:
 1. Mecklenburgisches Dragon-Regiment Nr. 17 (655 человек в 1870 г., 25 погибших)
 2. Mecklenburgisches Dragoner-Regiment Nr. 18 (634 человека в 1870 году, 27 погибших)
Mecklenburgisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 60 (четыре батареи по 200 человек в каждой).

Всего путем сложных арифметических расчетов выясняем, что в живых осталось 5650 солдат из Мекленбурга.

 

Сколько было наград?
Наука этого не знает, наука еще не осведомлена о ситуации.
Если награждены абсолютно все, то 5650 крестов обоих классов.
Ну, если по аналогии с Прусским Железным крестом 1870 года, то немецкой армии было выдано 47600 крестов на полтора миллиона, это каждый тридцатый.
Ну, потом кресты там сделали.

5650 делим на 30, и получаем 188 мекленбургских крестов обоих классов с датой 1870 года.
То есть сделали не больше одного креста, но вряд ли больше пяти с половиной тысяч.

Вот, например, кресты Мекленбург-Стрелиц были награждены на боевой ленте всего 269.
Однако кресты Мекленбург-Стрелиц гораздо реже, чем кресты Мекленбург-Шверин в Первую мировую войну.
Так что, может быть, и здесь пропорция такая же.
Чего я не знаю.

606277_original.jpg

606005_original.jpg

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21 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:

This is an English-speaking forum.

Bit rich coming from someone who speaks Canadian eh? 😉

 

VInce is right though, it is important we all speak English to understand eachother. Welcome on the forum Chechaco

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

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chechaco 1,

 

I have used google translate to turn your post into English so that some comments can be made to your post. Welcome to the forum

 

ваше сообщение на английский 
язык, чтобы к нему можно было 
добавить несколько релевантных 
комментариев. Добро пожаловать 
на форум.

 

The 17th Division was one of the most mixed divisions of the German army, formed by merging the contingents of Hanseatic cities with the contingents of the Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg.  The 33rd Infantry Brigade of the division consisted of contingents from Hamburg and Bremen (and until the formation of the 162nd Infantry Regiment in 1897 - the Lubeck Regiment).
The 34th Infantry Brigade of the division (Grand Duke of Mecklenburg) consisted of the infantry contingents of the Great Principalities of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Mecklenburg-Strelitz.
The Divisional Cavalry Brigade was the 17th (Grand Duke of Mecklenburg) Cavalry Brigade with two Dragoon regiments from Mecklenburg-Schwerin and at various times in its history attached to the Prussian cavalry.
The 17th Artillery Brigade consisted of a regiment from Holstein and a regiment from the two great principalities of Mecklenburg.

No. 34. Infantry brigade.
 Mecklenburg Grenadier Regiment No. 89 (1668 people (in 1914), 204 killed in the Franco-Prussian War)
 Mecklenburg Fuselian Regiment No.  90 (1694 people in 1870, 300 dead) 10/01/1867
 Mecklenburgisches Jäger-Bataillon Nr.  14 (794 people in 1870, 66 dead)
 cavalry brigade:
 1. Mecklenburgisches Dragon-Regiment Nr.  17 (655 people in 1870, 25 dead)
 2. Mecklenburgisches Dragoner-Regiment Nr.  18 (634 in 1870, 27 dead)
Mecklenburgisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr.  60 (four batteries of 200 people each).

In total, through complex arithmetic calculations, we find out that 5650 soldiers from Mecklenburg survived.

 

How many awards were there?
Science does not know this, science is not yet aware of the situation.
If absolutely everyone was awarded, then 5650 crosses of both classes.
Well, if, by analogy with the Prussian Iron Cross of 1870, the German army received 47,600 crosses for one and a half million, this is every 30th.
Well, then the crosses were made there.

Divide 5650 by 30, and we get 188 Mecklenburg crosses of both classes with the date 1870.
That is, they made no more than one cross, but hardly more than five and a half thousand.

For example, the Mecklenburg-Strelitz crosses were awarded on the battle ribbon in total 269.
However, the Mecklenburg-Strelitz crosses were much less common than the Mecklenburg-Schwerin crosses in the First World War.
So, maybe the proportion is the same here.
What I don't know.

Edited by Gordon Craig
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i do believe this example of a very rare cross has an extremely good chance of being authentic. the pre-ww1 versions have a crudely made appearance--especially the pinbacks. the gilding and base metal look correct for this cross--it's a rich subdued shade of yellow on a nice chocolate bronze (probably from captured cannons, etc etc)

it's hard to replicate that old bronze, imo

 

also, you can adjust your setting on your internet browser to automatically translate foreign languages--(my setting prompts me first). it's extremely helpful!

Edited by Eric Stahlhut
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The examples of the Mecklenburg Schwerin Militärverdienstkreuz that were cast (not stamped) from melted-down, captured enemy artillery pieces and which are mentioned in the previous post are known as Gussfertigungen aus Geschützbronze. 

 

Discussions about these cast crosses, both 1st and 2nd class, result in heated arguments even among experienced Meck-Schwerin collectors about autheticity and provenance.  Some genuine, cast Geschützbronze crosses look okay, but frankly, some of them look like crap.

 

Also, it has never been clearly established wheither or not all or only some of the cast Geschützbronze examples were awarded pieces.  

 

The MVK2-1870 examples that we are used to seeing on medal bars are clean, numismatic grade crosses such as the cross on the medal bar of Generalleutnant von Mirbach below, but sometimes we see cast Geschützbronze crosses like the one on the unnamed medal bar below. 

Ordensspange (v).jpg

Ordensspange (r).jpg

Ordensspange unbekannt.jpg

Edited by Simius Rex
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The first photo shows two genuine, cast Geschützbronze crosses.  The cross dated 1877 looks quite nice for a casting, but the cross dated 1870 looks hideous by comparison.

 

The second photo shows a GENUINE cast Geschützbronze cross in very good detail. 

 

These are not crosses I would be very eager to have in my collection, even though they are authentic, period-originals.

2x MVK2 Crosses.jpg

Meck Schwerin MVK2 1870.jpg

Edited by Simius Rex
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6 hours ago, laurentius said:

I don't want to hijack the subject, but what did Von Mirbach do to get that lifesaving-medal?

Together with his comrade captain baron von Troschke he saved on the 28th of November in 1880 a boy from drowning in the Berlin river Spree. For that rescue both officers of the Garde-Füsilier-Regiment were honoured with the Prussian live saving medal on the 9th of April in 1881.

Mecklenburg 1870 Mirbach.jpg

Edited by Komtur
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So which of the above categories does the MVK2 in the previous post fall into? (... so it relates in some way to the topic.) The photos are very low-res and become extremely pixelated when enlarged.

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1. I'm sorry, I translated the starting post into English, but during the editing process (some semantic intonations were lost during translation), it got lost in Russian. I was just trying to calculate the number of Mecklenburg soldiers who participated and survived in the Franco-Prussian war, and, based on this, determine the approximate circulation of the crosses. Although, perhaps, there were awards to them and soldiers from other lands of Germany, I do not know.

2. More images of the first cross, "for history" ) The core of the cross has a crack, clearly visible on the reverse. The cross was in the water for a long time.

post-4371-0-77521900-1604684815.jpg

post-4371-0-34259800-1604684941.jpg

post-4371-0-36432800-1604684851.jpg

post-4371-0-43996300-1604684929.jpg

post-4371-0-04658100-1604684915.jpg

post-4371-0-56486800-1604684888.jpg

post-4371-0-60523900-1604684903.jpg

post-4371-0-63272700-1604684870.jpg

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Aha, that could explain the rough finish of this cross, although details such as the 'm' in 'im' are pretty terrible. The suspension ring also looks like a replacement.

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1 hour ago, VtwinVince said:

Aha, that could explain the rough finish of this cross, although details such as the 'm' in 'im' are pretty terrible.

 

The explanation for the rough finish of the MVK2 that started the thread is not that it was immersed in water.

 

The explanation was provided in my two postings above along with relevant photographs of other crosses that fall into the same classification... namely, Gussfertigungen aus Geschützbronze (cast crosses made from captured enemy artillery pieces.)  As stated, these genuine, period-original, CAST crosses range from mediocre looking to crappy looking.  But they are 100% original to the period.

 

I don't know why I bother writing anything in my posts because some people simply look at the pretty pictures but don't take the time to read what the pictures represent.

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Simius Rex, I, and many other forumites, read your writing and learn from it.

Thanks for your input my friend.

 

Cheers 

Herman 

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  • 1 month later...

Simius, I greatly appreciate your explanations and gratefuly learn you and other experienced members who are willing to share knowledge. I also appreciate chechaco's intial post with calculations, spasibo bolšoje!

 

When Simius explained about on-going argument among Meckelnburg specialist about the autheniticity of these crosses I go an idea. Did anyone try to analize the metal content of those crosses? I'm aware most collectors don't have resources for that, but perhaps it would be possible with analysis of metal (a few shreds of original cross) to compare the composition of these crosses with composition of late-19th century cannon bronze (which should be recorded in some period manufacturing documents). I'm not a metallurgist so I don't know if this is possible, but I believe it should be. The same way as collectors of paintings analyze the paint of supposed original vs. fake paintings and compare these with known components of old paint.

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1 hour ago, Valter said:

Simius, I greatly appreciate your explanations and gratefuly learn you and other experienced members who are willing to share knowledge. I also appreciate chechaco's intial post with calculations, spasibo bolšoje!

 

‎ När Simius förklarade om det grälande bråket bland Meckelnburgspecialisten om dessa korss aukitiitet får jag en idé. Försökte någon analisera metallinnehållet i dessa kors? Jag är medveten om att de flesta samlare inte har resurser för det, men kanske skulle det vara möjligt med analys av metall (‎‎några strimlar av originalkors‎) to compare the composition of these crosses with composition of late-19th century cannon bronze (which should be recorded in some period manufacturing documents). I'm not a metallurgist so I don't know if this is possible, but I believe it should be. The same way as collectors of paintings analyze the paint of supposed original vs. fake paintings and compare these with known components of old paint.

It might work to use a handheld PMI XRF gun to do an material analyze.
It does not make any damage on the tested subject and since it's handheld it could easily be carried with you and do the same test on any old cannon. Then you might find out if they are both made from the same type of material composition. 

 

The biggest problem with these test guns is the price...

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https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/medals/made-victoria-cross.html?fbclid=IwAR13yLUFsTUDZ35X2UcrY8tbxhMk5519G-UnTgQTbC6RSDj2R1KfN98SdE8

 

Not about the Germans, but about the metal of awards and the metal of guns ))) But then it is easier to study the gun metal of more common awards than the Mecklenburg cross-the same medals of 1870-1871, the Italian medals for the First World War. And to break out pieces from such awards as the army crosses of 1813-1814 or this one-I personally feel sorry.

And once, by the way, I decided to solder the ear to the Romanian cross for crossing the Danube in 1877, it's like an iron cross, and my cross melted. But before that, he gave the impression of being quite normal. So it was established later that they were also made of tin alloy. "But this is a completely different story" - as we say )

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and, by the way, after looking at many sites on the Internet, I did not find a large number of good images of the Mecklenburg cross of 1870, and in total I found a little more than ten. so I don't even have the opportunity to compare the pictures.

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