Russian Order of St. Stanislaus and the Russian medal for zeal awarded to Germans

[laurentius]

Dear fellow collectors,

 

Since foreign decorations are no rarity in German groupings, I was wondering how many Orders of St. Stanislaus and Russian medals for zeal were given out to German soldiers and officers untill 1914. I am aware that the White Russian government awarded Russian orders to German members of the Freikorps who fought against the red forces but this is (for now) outside of the scope of my interest. It can be hard to distinguish them in groupings, since they used the same ribbon. Other decorations are needed to determine (roughly) the rank of the recipient if the grouping is unnamed. 

 

I realize this number might be hard to give, if there even is a number at all. Orders and medals were bestowed both to regiments with Russian colonels-in-chief and to soldiers and civilians not in these regiments. One example is Kaiser Alexander Garde-Grenadier Regiment n.1.  @chechaco1  mentioned 70 Russian awards for the Franco-Prussian wars. I am aware of several decorations given to German heads of state. Were there also non-royals among the recipients? I know of several crosses of St. George given to German privates.

 

Kind regards and thanks in advance, Laurentius

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Laurentius,

 

I can give you some numbers from my lists.

 

In WW1 served the following number of Prussian Officers and Officials with the Stanislaus

1st class 29

2nd class 341

3rd class 448

 

Anna

1st class 26

2nd class 159

3rd class 379

 

Best,

Daniel

 

[Nicolas7507]

Thanks for the numbers Daniel! 

 

Here is a bar, probably with a medal for zeal. I am guessing Marine. 

 

Best regards,

Nicolas

[laurentius]

3 hours ago, Daniel Krause said:

I can give you some numbers from my lists.

 

In WW1 served the following number of Prussian Officers and Officials with the Stanislaus

1st class 29

2nd class 341

3rd class 448

 

Anna

1st class 26

2nd class 159

3rd class 379

 

Best,

Daniel

Thank you Daniel, that's a very helpful list. I wonder if a similar list exists for Imperial Russian medals for zeal given to Prussian soldiers? I'm afraid not, since decorations to soldiers/NCOs were usually not as neatly recorded as decorations to officers.

 

The list you have given is for Prussian officers and officials. Does this include royalty? I would also be interested in a list of Russian decorations to non-Prussian officers and officials (especially Mecklenburg). I know I am asking for a lot but I really appreciate your help.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Laurentius,

 

Ruling Royalty and Princes would hardly get a RSt.

They would rather start with a White eagle or Newski.

 

Russian awards to Mecklenburg citizen - for that you need to check the Mecklenburg court and state handbooks.

 

Best,

Daniel

[laurentius]

1 hour ago, Daniel Krause said:

Ruling Royalty and Princes would hardly get a RSt.

They would rather start with a White eagle or Newski.

Thank you Daniel, one more follow-up question. The highest members of German aristocracy, the kings, granddukes together with the emperor would often receive the Order of St. Andrew the First-called. This order entitled the wearer to all lower Russian Orders first class (Order of St. Anne, Order of St. Wladimir and Order of St. Stanislaus). Would this show up in the ranklists too or would this be automatically assumed when a Russian Order of St. Andrew was mentioned in the lists?

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Daniel Krause]

Äh, a little correction.

 

The Wladimir was "out of the system".

 

Andreas knights did get the Newski, White Eagle, Anna and Stanislaus if they did not already had it.

 

If they did wear the Andreas on the collane, the Newski was worn on the sash, the White Eagle on the neck and the Anna at the medal bar.

 

If they did wear the Andreas on the sash, the Newski was worn on the Neck and the White Eagle at the medal bar, the Anna was not worn in that case.

 

...and so on downwards to the knights of the White Eagle....

Anna 1 did not include Stanislaus 1.

 

If a guy did get that kind of included lower Orders, only the highest Order was shown in the ranklist.

 

Best,

Daniel

[laurentius]

2 hours ago, Daniel Krause said:

The Wladimir was "out of the system".

Was this because it was often given for military merit with swords, much like the Russian Order of St. George or was this Order not bestowed on foreigners in peace-time?

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Deutschritter]

In the Rangliste there is a little sign behind some russian orders (I have no idea, what it is called), meaning the person automatically received all lower orders. This is especially so for the highest order, the Sankt-Andreas-Orden.

 

 

[Daniel Krause]

@ Laurentius, If I remember correctly, as Czar Paul I. did reorganzie the Russian Orders system, at that time "only" Andreas, Newski and Anna, into one combined Order.

As George and Wladimir were creations of his hated Mother Katharina, he did ignore them and the following Czars did award both Orders, George and Wladimir in the following 100+ years still out of the system.

The George was a pure Military Order, the Wladimir was always something "special and on top" in the Russian award system.

 

@ Deutschritter, exactly!!!

 

Best,

Daniel

 

[laurentius]

18 minutes ago, Daniel Krause said:

the Wladimir was always something "special and on top"

The enamelled cherry on the phaleristic cake of Russia

[Valter]

One question regarding Nicolas' lovely bar: this is probably before 1941? Did Germans wear their imperial Russian decorations after Barbarossa? It would be strange to wear enemy's decorations, or they regarded imperial Russian orders the other way, since these were not from Soviets but from "enemies of the Soviets"?

[paul wood]

I would have thought that Imperial Russian decorations, including Civil war ones (which many Germans received) would have been permitted, after all "my enemys enemy is my friend".

 

p

[laurentius]

1 hour ago, Valter said:

One question regarding Nicolas' lovely bar: this is probably before 1941? Did Germans wear their imperial Russian decorations after Barbarossa? It would be strange to wear enemy's decorations, or they regarded imperial Russian orders the other way, since these were not from Soviets but from "enemies of the Soviets"?

Although I expect @Nicolas7507's ribbonbar to be a pre-1939 it was most definetely allowed to wear non-soviet Russian orders. There are several examples of soldiers and officers wearing Russian Imperial decorations after the nazi take-over, both during the Third Reich period and WW2. I know of atleast three recipients of the Order of St. Stanislaus who occassionaly wore their decorations.

 

On a more general note. The wearing of foreign decorations was allowed, as long as those decorations were not handed out by a current foreign government at war with Germany. Before the invasion of Yugoslavia it was perfectly possible for a German to wear an Order of St. Sava just like it was perfectly fine for Germans to wear Italian decorations until 1943.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[paul wood]

Thank you Laurentius

 

p

[Beau Newman]

This one is on my "to do" list.  I need to find a period Stanislaus 3rd Class to go with the pre-1905 Bavarian MVO.  I don't know the exact background but, I am assuming that a non-swords award would be correct.

[paul wood]

an Albert Kebel (AK) third class would be ideal and not expensive.

 

p

[David M]

Who is Albert Kebel?

[dedehansen]

17 minutes ago, David M said:

Who is Albert Kebel?

Hi Albert Keibel

 

Regards

 

Andreas

[paul wood]

Sorry dyslexia rules ko

 

paul

[laurentius]

5 hours ago, David M said:

Who is Albert Kebel?

Albert Keibel was a Russian jeweler of Swiss descent who made many orders in the years leading up to WW1. His pieces are, as @paul wood mentioned well-priced, but still of great quality. Great items to start a Russian collection with or to repair an old medalbar.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[David M]

13 hours ago, dedehansen said:

Hi Albert Keibel

 

Regards

 

Andreas

I was not trying to be a dick, I just wanted to know who he was

[BlackcowboyBS]

Thx Laurentius for your explanation, wasn't aware of him either.

[paul wood]

The Keibel family made russian orders from the late 1830s up till about 1910, first of the dynasty Wilhelm started as official supplier with kammerer (kk) then on his own (wk) in the 1860s he was succeeded by his son Julius (Ik) and his son Albert (AK) succeeded him around 1880 and remained official supplier till his death around 1910 with him the Keibel dynasty came to an end.

 

p