Miniature Chain with Siam Crown Order

[webr55]

Hello, two years ago I acquired this nice miniature chain of a Reserve/Landwehr Officer with both an Italian as well as a Siam Crown Order, and an Ottoman medal. Must have been in alive in 1934. The Siam order is not very common on German bars or chains. I find one good candidate:

 

Lt dR Willy Koßmann (Kossmann) from Lw Fußartillerie, Berlin V, 1. Aufgebot, with an LD1, JK5 and SK5

 

According to DOA born 12.8.1875, was Geheimer expedierender Sekretär with the German Gesandtschaft in Bangkok in 1908. Also had the "Commemorative Medal on the Occasion of the Longest Reign Celebrations of the Accession to the Throne of H.M King Chulalongkorn" (see: https://gmic.co.uk/topic/76456-miniature-medal-of-the-most-exalted-order-of-the-white-elephant/), but he probably couldn't find a miniature for that.  

 

He was a diplomat in North Africa, Spain and Portugal, and later some kind of department head in the office of Reichspräsident Hindenburg, under Otto Meissner. 

 

According to MyHeritage, an "Ernst Johannes Willy Kossmann", born in Berlin, died 17.7.1934 in Osterode/Harz, I guess this is him. But might have still received the Hindenburg. 

 

[Dave Danner]

It's not Koßmann. He is listed with the EK1, LD1 and Hamburgisches Hanseatenkreuz in the 1918 Handbuch für das deutsche Reich.

[webr55]

Ah ok. My alternatives are:

 

- Hptm Miethner, Lwbezirk II Berlin, LD1, SK5

 

- Olt Sichler, Lwbezirk Halberstadt (Feldart. 2. Aufg.), LD2, SK5

 

 

[CRBeery]

Why not a naval person?

[VtwinVince]

Nice Kette. You're right, the Siamese Crown Order is not common on German Schnallen. Here is another.

[CRBeery]

Naval engineer Otto Behrendt.

[Dave Danner]

Miethner and Sichler both received the HOH3X. Maybe, as suggested above, there are Navy candidates. Otherwise, a recalled a.D. officer who might be hard to find if he received the foreign orders after leaving the Army.

 

As for the war decorations, Oldenburg and Braunschweig may point to a X. Armeekorps connection.

[webr55]

Gets tricky. How about Olt dL Richert (LD2, JK5) or Hptm dL Bingel (LD1, JK5), both from Lw Berlin?

[Dave Danner]

Bingel is Otto Hermann Karl Gustav Josef, *6.9.1869 in Lollar, Gießen, †9.9.1943 in Berlin-Charlottenburg. He was a Fürstlich Solms-Braunfels'scher Rentmeister. There are familial connections between the then-Fürst and Italy (his wife and mother), which might explain the JK5. No connection to any of the other decorations seems apparent.

 

I have nothing on Richert other than that in the 1911 ranklist of reserve/Landwehr officers, he is listed as a Gefängnis-Inspektionsassistent in Charlottenburg. No Richert with that occupation is listed in the 1914 and 1915 Berlin address books; the closest is Albert Richert, listed as a Polizeibeamter.

 

[webr55]

Asking some specialists: I understand that the design of the Siam Crown Order changed in 1909, is it correct that this is a pre-1909 piece, like the two others above?

Also, since both Behrendt and Walther received the 5th class with what looks like a silver medallion, would the gold medallion in my piece indicate that this is a 4th class?

[VtwinVince]

Did anyone here snag this interesting Schnalle off fleabay yesterday? Has a Siam Crown Order.

[Stogieman]

4 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

Did anyone here snag this interesting Schnalle off fleabay yesterday? Has a Siam Crown Order.

Saw this bar but it went for an outrageous price imo

[VtwinVince]

I agree, the BMVO was pretty banged up and the SAO1mS was missing the reverse medallion. However, I believe it should be identifiable. I bailed at 1500.00.

[webr55]

I think I know who it belonged to. 

[VtwinVince]

OK sleuths, let's hear your theories.

[webr55]

Did anyone here manage to get the bar? Otherwise, I am not sure it makes sense to add value by doing research for free. 

 

I know this is a controversial issue which we have discussed times before. 

 

 

[Stogieman]

That beat up 10x bar has been relisted, buyer’s remorse?

[VtwinVince]

I'm always suspicious when this happens.

[2dresq]

I agree, I guess it depends on the sellers other transactions and "worthiness".

 

Best Regards,

JustinG

[Graf]

It could be dodgy bidding by the seller from a second account or from a friend  He went too high and scared the real bidders

 

It is a common practice on eBay It is sad

[bill Shea]

Hello

I am the owner of the 10 medal bar with the Siam Crown Order that is currently listed on Ebay. I sincerely hope that someone from the group is the winning bidder. That way webr55 can provide that valuable information.

I would not expect you to share that information with me unless you chose to do so.

That way, in case someone from outside your group has the winning bid, I could share that information with them.

Kind Regards

Bill Shea of The Ruptured Duck 

[Stogieman]

I agree, I’ve met Bill a number of times at local shows. He’s a first rate individual 

[saschaw]

On 02/04/2023 at 10:16, webr55 said:

Asking some specialists: I understand that the design of the Siam Crown Order changed in 1909, is it correct that this is a pre-1909 piece, like the two others above?

Not a specialist for Siamese awards, but from my source, Borna Barac's "Reference Catalogue Orders, Medals and Decorations of the World instituted until 1945. Part IV – Gold Book, P – Z.", p. 1760 to 1762, this type was used from 1873 to 1941.

 

I have never heard of any Siam design change in 1909?!

 

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by saschaw

[webr55]

This should be KorvKap aD Martin von Cappeln (1882-1952). He held the Braunschweig, Oldenburg and SA3aX, as well as the Siam before the war. Also was Cdr of the Euphrat-Fluß-Abteilung, so must have had Turkish awards. 

[Daniel Krause]

webr55 is right, definetly v.Cappeln.

 

Best,

Daniel