saschaw

It would be better to have such a piece in hands than judging by just one picture. I am not sure about this cross! It's definitely no standard type and probably not an awarded cross, but, to be honest, I really don't see "poor detail overall". To me, this looks possibly convincing, with what seems like grounded and polished glass enamel - nothing I'd dismiss just from this picture. It may well be a foreign made wearer's copy. After all, those were widely spread all over Europe...

I only know what Mr. Thies states in his current advertise in the DGO magazine, and according to that, it's an authentic 1870 cross. He also has an 1914 Grand Cross shown there as well. As he doesn't mention provenience on any of them, I assume none is known, but only the catalog will show... anyway, none of them will be within my budget I guess.

I'm not sure if there is an "official" answer to the first question, I haven't found something by now other than the pure fact it had highest precedence on Bavarian bars. It might possibly refer to the paramount position the House Equestrian Order of Saint George held - keep in mind, this came in several classes and even the lowest, knight, was worn as a neck badge, accompanied by a breast star! This isn't our standard merit order, but a society connecting Bavaria's old, high nobility... However, many photos even of Bavarian princes (and rulers?) proof this rule of precedence was often ignored, not only if the medal was combined with the very high esteemed Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden's knight's cross. It might have seemed ridiculous even to some of them!

Wow, now that's an impressive combination of high awards... however, just in case this is a path the further discussion might take: I would avoid to add anything else than what someone had, if such a tunic is attributed to a certain person. Or in doubt: not replace any (other, non-fitting) awards. But that's just my few Pfenninge as a purist.

Thanks for these most valuable additions! However, the crosses awarded in Doorn era would probably have been gilt only, made or supplied by Godet, and came in another style of boxes. See also the excellent article Die Vergabe des Königlichen Hausordens von Hohenzollern durch Wilhelm II. im Doorner Exil | geschichtlich – bildlich – statistisch by Tilo Wahl, published in the DGO yearbook 2012, pages 2 to 22.

Ah, I see - hard enough to find I suppose, and everything else is almost beyond possible: Künker announces to have v. Mackensen's real one, among others of his award and many family pieces, in their upcoming autumn auction. Exciting!

These crosses are still around on German ebay and according to the offering, it's a multi-piece cross with iron core, but non-silver (still silver marked...) frame. Those are brand-new, and most unlikely to be associated with any older German firm that made awards "back in the days". Only good thing here: they are offered as fake. Nothing for my collection, but if someone needs a filler... there are worse made ones, for sure.

In general, I can give thumbs up for this statement, but I have to clearify: Baden changed from gold to silver gilt - or, to be acurate, to silver with a mechanical gold plating - as far back as 1910. So, this wasn't made due to war caused gold shortage, but just to save some money for the state. However, it is very easy to alter a knight's cross 2nd class to a (gilt) knight's cross 1st class, just by gilding it. From poor pictures, I couldn't tell original and manipulated pieces apart... they are a mine field, in my opinion. Unless they have the "D" mark stamped in the medaillon body. As a Baden collector, I avoid anything else.

I had the same recently, and must clearify: such a combination of metal bows was never worn officially, but rather put together by a collector. You could only have the "1870 - 71." or one of the two other "1870." and "1871." bows, or maybe both of the latter in strange cases, plus, of course, the "1866." to any of those combinations. But not all at once. Your medal, Dean, seems to be an early striking, with the spotty arranged letters in the reverse inscription. Such a medal would most likely have been awarded in 1839 to a veteran of the Napoleonic wars... See Volle, Henning. Die Orden und tragbaren Ehrenzeichen des Großherzogtums und der Republik Baden. Freiburg im Breisgau 2019. p. 389–408.

The Ludvigsen volume gives award numbers for both pre- (mainly 1860s/1870s) and WW1 awards by years, the Geile work on Prussian WW1 awards gives the WW1 awards, those to the army only, with names, ranks, and dates. However, we have to keep in mind that from late 1916 on, they were produced and usually awarded in silver gilt! Once, when I had a damaged example, I discussed this very issue with Daniel Krause, who assumed there were ca. thirty commanders and roughly a dozen grand commander crosses in real gold awarded in WW1...

Wow, hadn't expected that, to be honest... I'll send you an email!

Good to see an authentic Michael, after German ebay is currently flooded with probably-not-so-good-ones. See, here's one without crown; I'm not sure if they're also doing the higher grade, however... The ebay seller, furchtlosundtreu14, seems to be part of a "network" for not so nice pieces, together with others like aubanan12, benkosi, bogdangapol, cairde32, egon4791, ichverkaufealles12345, galec-galec, inge7591ch, kasperle369, koelnerdomplatz09, kokor00, lillyfee-1995, mansamusa, orehilas321, pueppchenundtuch, salihero, sanktvith2011, slimcase1958, sterog62, trumeko, trumeko28 and wilro11... ebay was more fun in earlier years.

Are you sure he got any 1914 Iron Crosses besides the Grand Cross? That would be unusual, to say the least, and I cannot find much to back this up. Do you have some source that claims he got both classes of the EK twice? I have some doubts about this claim, to be honest.

David, I have this one as well. Your search, however, has probably been satisfied within the past five years? If not, please feel free to drop me a line, here, or better, by email...

PS: If you're interested in this decoration, please see also this thread for another one in wear.

Three and a half year, and no answer? I assume you learned it in the meantime, maybe at German Feldgrau forum, where we both interact. But for everyone else, and just in case you didn't: It's a cross of the society Frauenstein from the Free Imperial City of Frankfurt, as instituted by Holy Roman Emperor Franz II in 1804. With this additional information it should be possible to identify this man - although this decoration would not be mentioned in the Prussian rank lists. A certain military unit, however, should help to narrow down certain family names. The names of the families connected with the society are well known and published. I attached some pictures of exemplar No 1, made in Vienna in 1804, that I had the opportunity to posses for a while last year. For a more detailed description, in German only, unfortunately, please check my site.

Sure there is. Late Erhard Roth, who gives 402 awards (instead of here quoted 395 awards) in the "Great War", lists all names, ranks, units and award dates. His award numbers, however, are known to be incomplete, lacking the last months of 1918 as those weren't published anymore. The book, covering most of Baden's bravery and war awards besides the war merit cross and such, seems to be available: Roth, Erhard: Verleihungen von militärischen Orden und Ehrenzeichen des Großherzogtums Baden im Ersten Weltkrieg 1914 - 1918. Offenbach, PHV-Verlag, 1997. Yes and no. Both, as well as the standard silver merit medal, were given for acts of bravery. The merit medals on the Karl Friedrich ribbon were intended for minor acts of bravery, while the name engraved Militärische Karl-Friedrich-Verdienstmedaille was reserved for acts of outstanding bravery - or for NCOs/EM that had previously won an EK1!

I think I have all those magazines. But your request got obsolete in the meantime, I assume?

Impossible, even from the awards, but you're not the first one to think so, which suggests there is much resemblance. As this photo (or one exactly like it) used to be mine, and we had discussed it earlier, I can give full information on him: "Eugen MAHLA, königlich bayerischer Regierungsdirektor, geboren zu Limbach am 25. März 1834, besuchte die Technische Hochschule in Karlsruhe, trat dann in den praktischen Eisenbahndienst über und bekleidete verschiedene Stellungen beim Bau und Betrieb der privilegierten bayerischen Ostbahnen und der pfälzischen Eisenbahnen. Im Jahre 1874 zur Generaldirektion der königlich bayerischen Verkehrsanstalten als Obermaschinen-Ingenieur berufen, wurde er hier zum General-Direktionsrat und Regierungsdirektor befördert und mit der Leitung der maschinentechnischen Abteilung der General-Direktion betraut. Ende 1900 trat er in den Ruhestand. Als Mitglied der General-Direktion vertrat er diese lange Jahre bei der Kommission des Vereins deutscher Eisenbahnverwaltungen für technische und Betriebsangelegenheiten und anderer Kommissionen. Außer der Orden der Eisernen Krone II. Klasse ist er Inhaber des königlich preußischen Kronenordens II Klasse und des Roten Adler Ordens III. Klasse, des königlich bayerischen Ordens vom hl. Michael I. Klasse, des Militärverdienstordens I. Klasse und des Luitpold-Kreuzes für 40jährige Dienstzeit, des königlich sächsischen Albrecht-Ordens I. Klasse und des Komtur-Kreuzes des königlich belgischen Leopoldordens."

Is your request still of interest, John? I could look them up as well.

Here's the next one, now without the additional clasp, offered among countless other shady looking pieces by seller ichverkaufealles12345. This seller, together with aubanan12, benkosi, bogdangapol, cairde32, egon4791, furchtlosundtreu14, galec-galec, inge7591ch, kasperle369, koelnerdomplatz09, kokor00, lillyfee-1995, mansamusa, orehilas321, pueppchenundtuch, salihero, sanktvith2011, slimcase1958, sterog62, trumeko, trumeko28 and wilro11 seems to be part of a "network" for not so nice pieces...

That's a good question worth a thread for it's own, but I won't have a definite answer. It just seems that was their custom: All but two Baden award medals from the monarchy have it, from earliest 1800s to 1918. Only exceptions that come to mind are the earliest civil merit medal that started in the ca. 1770s, and the 1902 reign jubilee medal that was awarded to foreigners (non-Badeners) in larger numbers. By the way, it was not only Italy to use this type of suspension. Several German states had medals mounted that way in the early 1800s, like Nassau, Frankfurt, Sachsen-Saalfeld and Sachsen-Hildburghausen, but most of them disappeared. Sachsen-Coburg und -Gotha is another state that had merit medals made like this until 1918.

The precedence is definitely wrong on this bar, you're right. It's messed up, and that doesn't make things easier. However, the bar clearly shows the very distinctive mounting traces of a Royal HOH... precedence could only be proper for a Royal HOH Inhaberkreuz, but then the combination makes no sense at all... maybe we're lucky and Daniel Krause will have another look here. In the mean time, the older thread I linked is worth to be re-read! I just checked again at Gritzner, where the Kab.=Ordre vom 4. Dezember 1871, dealing with precedence on Prussian medal bars, is quoted: A Prussian Royal HOH knight's cross would outrank both RAO and KO, while the Princely HOH should be right behind the XXV long service cross, and definitely also behind the (here unmentioned) XX Landwehr cross. Later introduced awards brought only minor changes to that...

Even mine, although it doesn't have an EK in it? Sorry I'm highjacking the thread... we're far from 1939 EKs now!

Thanks for the kind words! I was born, raised and am still located in Karlsruhe, its former capital, where I'm collecting orders and decorations of all eras of the Baden state...