Guest Rick Research Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 "Your conclusion that this bar once belonged to Model must include the proof that: -no other officer of army, airforce or navy could have had a bar with the same combination (please dont insist that no naval officer had a red backing on the bar) -this bar is a non altered version from Model between 1936 and 1939 without any 3rd Reich-award, no occupation-medals, no clasp 1939 on the EK." Mark-- We not only use Rank Lists but award rolls which have yet to be published because we are still working on them. EVERYTHING must be considered-- and is. Mecklenburg-Strelitz's wartime award rolls are finished and should be printed next year. Mecklenburg-Schwerin's (being a much vaster task including 19th century decorations) is still being worked on but should also be printed next year. Bavarian wartime rolls (the late Erhard Roth missed virtually all non-Bavarians, alas) are also in progress and hopefully will be printed next year adding these to the 1914-18 rolls published last year so, yes, it IS possible to account for anyone who had the x5 combination of HOH3X, BMV4X, MMV2, WMDA1, and ÖM3K. There were other officers who had all of these-- and MORE awards but nobody else who had ONLY these awards. Years and years of hard work by the members of the Awards Research Collective make such "easy" identifications possible. Picking out a match isn't hard-- from the Rank Lists-- but tracking down ANY possibility that there could be anybody ELSE takes time time time and massive reference resources. Which the Collective has and is working on. As for not updating bars... examples are too numerous to cite. My own "1936" bar to Konteradmiral (V) Böning-- who never bothered to remount his October 1936 medal bar for a mere KVK2X. Last month's Carsten Zeige sale had the group (anyone have any idea whether it was sold as a group or split and scattered to the winds?) of General der Infanterie Rudolf GERCKE-- Note that he never bothered adding his Flower Campaigns let alone EK2 Spange. (The FOUR Flowers Campaigns seem to defy ban on the three ribbons being worn by Wehrmacht personnel...) Men like this presumably thought they would be adding MANY awards and why bother remounting for every-little-one before Final Victory? :whistle:
Ulsterman Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Congratulations Paul! : A premier piece indeed! I am jealous! That's a jewel in the crown of a medal bar collection.
Guest Rick Research Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 From a local collection I scanned some time back on a Traveling Museum get together-- St. Henry-Knight Generalmajor Christoph Stengel in 1944-- 1944-- wearing his pre-war medal bar, buttonhole ribbons for EK2 Spange and Ostmedaille. His incredibly peculiar method of wearing EK1 1914 and 1939 Spange thereto was his own bizarre fashion statement! My experience has been that almost NOBODY updated medal bars during the war. Aside from young Wehrmacht members dressing up for marriage photos, the "old guys" left things as they were. In my 40 years of collecting, I'd say probably 95% of medal bars with 1914/39 EK2 Spangen stuck on them had been "improved" by little monkey fingers.
Claudio Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 I also asked myself if Model's medal combination could be unique or if there were more officers wearing the same medals... Btw... the only thing I could get from Gehrcke group was a mere Wiederholungsspange... but it's a first/early type! Too bad that Gehrcke group was slip in some many pieces... Claudio
Guest Rick Research Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Nope... common awards, unique COMBINATION. That's what makes having the references sources -- all of them available-- so vital. That "edge" certainly made all the difference, didn't it? G-E-R-C-K-E. Nobody except the German army (and Gordon Williamson ) ever spelled HIS name correctly! :banger:
VtwinVince Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Rick is correct, most officers did not continually monkey with their spanges during the war. My uncle received several awards during the war, but did not upgrade his spange from the pre-war period. And his feldspange is a real dog's breakfast, breaking all the rules of precedence.
Guest Rick Research Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 Another example of non-updated medal bar (Konteradmiral zS Otto Fricke) which has just come up coincidentally 3 years and two different countries apart-- but everybody is here at GMIC and research elephants REMEMBER things-- http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=10743 All together now: "It's a small, small world...." :whistle:
webr55 Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 Simply a wonderful find. It makes sense that Model's bar is quite plain and down-to-earth. Attached you find a picture of his grave on the war cemetery near Aachen - very simple - no rank, and he shares it with another one. Chris
webr55 Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 I've got a number of pictures of Model - but have never been able to find a picture of him wearing his medal bar. It seems he very rarely wore it. Here's a picture with the East Front Medal in his buttonhole, though. Makes sense, too -- he wore the two awards that would have gone on his Spange (EK2 Wiederholungsspange and East Front) in his buttonhole. (To the right is Hermann Breith.)
NavalMark Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 Gentlemen, i can follow your arguments and i think this bar has a good chance to be Models bar. At least it is for me a question of believe or not believe that this bar is 1.) 100% unique 2.) Model never updated his bar after 1936/1937. A lot of officers were stored in a "parking zone" during the 100.000-men-army period as military officials or advisors and they came back in active service in 1935. So they were never mentioned with their decorations in a Weimar-period Rangliste. The service as an military official counted for the long service awards. Also any officer who entered service before 1906/05 with 5 years service in WWI could get the 25-long service decoration until 1939 if he was reactivated for the Wehrmacht in 1935. Most pictures of Model we know were taken from PK-photographers showing him as an commanding general, of cause without the medalbar. Otherwise between 1937 and 1945, 8 years, there were shurely a lot of official occasians for a general/generaloberst/generalfeldmarschall to wear his fullsize medalbar. So at least for me it is and it will stay a question of believe or not. But still a nice medalbar with a good chance to be Models bar. Regards Markus
Paul C Posted October 18, 2009 Author Posted October 18, 2009 A lot of officers were stored in a "parking zone" during the 100.000-men-army period as military officials or advisors and they came back in active service in 1935. So they were never mentioned with their decorations in a Weimar-period Rangliste. The service as an military official counted for the long service awards. Also any officer who entered service before 1906/05 with 5 years service in WWI could get the 25-long service decoration until 1939 if he was reactivated for the Wehrmacht in 1935. I have to disagree with this statement. If an officer was accepted into the Reichwehr then it was noted in the Ehren Rangliste of 1926. If an officer was not in the Reichwehr then he would not have had enough time for the 25 year long service award even if he was called back in 1935. Also keep in mind that when calculating time for the 1936 long service award that time served between 1914-1918 did not count double. It is my firm belief that the owner of my bar was a Reichwehr officer and the only Reichwehr officer who had the combination on the bar is Model.
Guest Rick Research Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 Certainly officers who went from the imperial army (and to a far lesser extent, imperial navy) into Weimar era police forces and then were transferred into the Wehrmacht are "invisible" with continuous seniority although I believe there are Weimar era Polizei Seniority Lists that show awards--have never seen one BUT we are not working from ONLY Rank Lists. We are working from AWARD ROLLS. The ÖM3K Rolls we do not have... but if anybody anybody showed up with HOH3X, BMV4X, MMV2, Wehrmacht army/navy 25 AND nothing else... we'd find him with BOTH the awards rolls AND the Wehrmacht DALs. This is NOT a "routine," combination. The only common link between Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Bavaria was KB Inf Rgt 21... and no match. This is literally like a winning lottery number: there are SIX "numbers" that all have to match HOH3X, BMV4X, MMV2, Wehrmacht army/navy 25, ÖM3K, and the Empty Space where Nothing Else exists. The "odds" of that on an ODD combination are... God knows we've typed out enough hundreds of thousands of unpublished award entries to have a feel for what combinations are likely or not. This isn't magic-- it's years (decades, for me) of deadly dull, tedious, slogging hard work. :speechless1:
FrontlineAntiques Posted October 19, 2009 Posted October 19, 2009 This is a fantastic find. Well done!
Paul C Posted October 21, 2009 Author Posted October 21, 2009 I would like to make one or two final remarks/conclusions and address any objections to this bar being Model's. The objections center on two points 1.) 100% unique 2.) Model never updated his bar after 1936/1937. In regards to point one I have reviewed ALL of my research several times and find that only Model has this combination of awards. In regards to point two I will say that since the combination can only be Model's it is unimportant if Model updated his bar because the ID is based upon is pre-1938 awards. I challenge anyone to find another officer with the same combination of awards that Model had. Proof can be in the forum of a ranklist entry, picture or award rolls. If anyone does disprove that the combination is unique to Model I will give them my Ranklist on CD Volume I and a 1924 Reichwehr Army Ranklist reprint for free.
Guest Rick Research Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 You're mean!!! Suggesting people waste vast amounts of time fruitlessly! People who have NOT spent decades and years accumulating staggering amounts of data simply do not realize how much work is involved in coming up with a quote unquote easy answer, because they do not have the massive amounts of period reference material that the Awards Research Collective™®© possesses. It is never a matter of stopping at the first match found, but of continuing through EVERYTHING to make sure there are not other possibilities. Because all of our collective effort is focussed on 1914-1918 THAT is "easy" for us to do... but go back into the vast decades of peace between 1871 and 1914 and it is much much harder to do (without clues from a photograph etc) because... we haven't been DOING all of that. Two handfuls of us are basically spending our lives "doing" 1914-1918. The sheer vastness IS only manageable as we have divided up little states and so on. "Little" states still have hundreds of thousands of entries, all typed out by the world's most reluctant and unskilled typists, I can assure you. The identification of this bar... basically took three of us 40-man-years to come up with. Triple cross checked and verified. Shall we check back in ... 2049? (I won't still be here! )
Daniel Krause Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 ...now as well 2 cents from me. There are all quite common awards on the bar - "rarest" is the HOH3X with 8000+ awards - , but as Rick already stated, it is the combo of "what is there and what is not there" which makes the ID. Beside of the Bavarian IR 21 - and our guy here is everything else but no Bavarian - there were LESS THAN 100 combo´s BMV4X - MMV!!! All other guys could be eliminated for having other awards, died before 1934... Best regards Daniel
Stogieman Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 We actually have quite a bit on Stengel, did you forget I owned his ribbon bar, silverware, etc., etc., etc....?? From a local collection I scanned some time back on a Traveling Museum get together-- St. Henry-Knight Generalmajor Christoph Stengel in 1944-- 1944-- wearing his pre-war medal bar, buttonhole ribbons for EK2 Spange and Ostmedaille. His incredibly peculiar method of wearing EK1 1914 and 1939 Spange thereto was his own bizarre fashion statement! My experience has been that almost NOBODY updated medal bars during the war. Aside from young Wehrmacht members dressing up for marriage photos, the "old guys" left things as they were. In my 40 years of collecting, I'd say probably 95% of medal bars with 1914/39 EK2 Spangen stuck on them had been "improved" by little monkey fingers.
Imperial Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 Paul, You are to be congratulated. It is a wonderful bar and you not only earned it by keeping the books and your mind open. you deserve it because you did the research and hours of study to see what others had not. Rick, you deserve a chocolate milkshake (or vanilla) for being the backbone of the research team in the U.S. Folks, these men pour their souls (sometimes pure, sometimes not) into countless pages and endless lists that drip back minute particles of gratification. It is only when a bar comes along like the one Paul found that the payoff is big, and in this case huge!! It could not have happened to a better guy or better team of gentlemen. I am thrilled for you all, but most especially for Paul who has worked years to finally earn this payday. STP
Wild Card Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 Paul, You are to be congratulated. It is a wonderful bar and you not only earned it by keeping the books and your mind open. you deserve it because you did the research and hours of study to see what others had not. Rick, you deserve a chocolate milkshake (or vanilla) for being the backbone of the research team in the U.S. Folks, these men pour their souls (sometimes pure, sometimes not) into countless pages and endless lists that drip back minute particles of gratification. It is only when a bar comes along like the one Paul found that the payoff is big, and in this case huge!! It could not have happened to a better guy or better team of gentlemen. I am thrilled for you all, but most especially for Paul who has worked years to finally earn this payday. STP Well said!
Brian R Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 When the doors opened to the public last Friday at the show in Gunzenhausen I did a fast walk through to look for medal bars or ribbon bars that I could research...After doing my initial research I was at the door the first thing Saturday morning... Paul - You must have been beside yourself, having identified this bar and having to wait for the doors to open again on Saturday (and hoping/PRAYING it was still there)!!!! Congratulations on a great addition to your collection. You certainly have been awarded for your hard work.
Paul C Posted October 22, 2009 Author Posted October 22, 2009 Imperial, thank you for your very kind words. The research of the Model bar was, as is many, many times, a group effort of those in the US and Germany. They know who they are and I want to thank them. We work together as a group, but more importantly we are good friends. I would not have remained in this hobby if not for the friends I have made and the great people that I meet in the US and Germany. I have been collecting medal bars and ribbon bars for about 6-7 years. When I started I only knew that it was possible to put a name to a medal bar or ribbon bar. Beyond that I knew nothing. I would like to publicly thank Research Rick for taking me under his wing and sharing his knowledge and experience, as well as his friendship. Rick, here's one for you.. Brian, yes at the show Saturday morning I was about fourth or fifth in line at the door. I was a little worried when I saw Claudio ahead of me on the way to the show.
Claudio Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 Hi Paul, I remember to have already seen that bar 2 years ago at the same show... back then I refused the offer, because it seemed to pricey at that time, but of course I didn't know that that combination was so unique and could have been traced to GFM Model. Paul... you know me... we can always talk together and would never try "steal" a good deal on purpose from a collecting friend. Ciao, Claudio
Paul C Posted October 22, 2009 Author Posted October 22, 2009 Claudio, I know that. I was just making a joke. Please don't take me seriously.
Claudio Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 No problem, Paul... I knew that you meant it in a jokingly way. Sometimes collectors are very selfish, though! But we never had any problem about that... especially on this forum! Ciao, Claudio
Guest Rick Research Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 Meanwhile, Claudio was wondering "What is Paul doing here so early? Well, if I run right to Aisle 86 Section 14...." Since I don't get out much, the next time you see Paul, ask him about The Virginia Story. Closest I've come in mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnny years. :catjava:
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