The medal bar of GFM Walter Model

[PKeating]

Here's another good one, taken sometime between July 1941 and February 1942, when he received the EL. He wears the 1914 EK2 ribbon in his buttonhole with the 1939 Bar. Oddly enough, we share a birthday, albeit it seventy years apart.

[Les]

This photo from the Bundesrachiv has a date of Nov 1944, shortly after Arnhem, where my father's first cousin was one of the Fj's under Model's command during the battle there the month before.

Note in the photo, Model is still wearing his "Frozen Meat" medal, no EKII ribbon in the buttonhole, -AND- very clearly seen in the photo are loops for wearing a medal and/or ribbon bar. Any bar worn in those loops would have meant regulations required the 1914 ribbon have the 1939 bar attached there...since he wasn't wearing it in the buttonhole.

Model was a busy man during the war, and high enough in rank that he would have had enough staff lackies to launder his clothing, add or put his ribbons and medals on his uniform, instead of doing it himself. As a GFM, the number of lackies would have been higher than a divisional commander. The claim he didn't bother to upgrade his medal bar after 1939, while it is clear he would have had to update his ribbon bar. Having both bars done at the same time is not that much extra work if he wanted both done.

Photos show he did change the way he wore his medals, and uniforms over the course of the war. Why have ribbon or medal bar loops placed on a uniform in 1944/1945, not wear the 1914 EKII ribbon/39 bar in the buttonhole, if he wasn't wearing an updated ribbon bar and possibly even an updated medal bar?

Edited February 5, 2010 by Les

[saschaw]

I don't really think there is any scope for an adult discussion with people who resort to playground abuse, who think the Iron Crosses posted here (to make a point, which was clearly too subtle) are fakes [...]

I'm not thinking it... it's rather you are thinking they were good?!

Tolle et lege, svp. http://www.medalnet.net/Iron_Cross_1870.htm

[PKeating]

Model in 1926

Rick Lundstrom:

would have been among the thousands of others who have walked by this bar and seen no more than a chipped BMV4X, a damp-stained MMV2, and a Godet bar with red rather than gray backing.

On what, precisely, do you base your identification of this medal bar as a Godet product? I cannot get past the off-centre eagle, the appearance of the red backing, the uneven loop stitching, that dangling thread and the complete absence of any indication that the backing ever bore a Godet label.

Paul Chepurko:

Yesterday I was at the US Archive in College Park, Maryland USA. I was able to obtain a copy of Model's service record. For thoses of you who do not know the US Army took whatever German Army and SS servicemen records that they could find in May 1945. In 1955 these records were returned to Germany but only after they were put on Microfilm. Looking though Model's file I saw that at each review by a superior officer Model's awards were listed ont he sheet. As per the sheet below Model did not receive any Czech or Austrian campaign medal. His only campaign medal was the Russian medal. There is a color picture of Model on the previous page of this thread that shows Model with the Russian Campaign ribbon through the button hole. So after Model put his long service awards on the medal bar his only additional medal that could be on the bar would have been the Russian Campaign medal. Since this was awarded in 1942 I doubt he had the time or desire to update his bar. I have never seen a picure of Model wearing his ribbon bar or medal bar after 1938. He seems to not have cared to wear it.

You may be right. This might be GFM Model’s medal bar, updated after the award of the long service cross. However, it is quite presumptuous to suggest that Model would not have added his Winter War Medal to his medal bar. Even humble private soldiers had their EKs and Winter War Medals court-mounted just in case they might need them. Someone like Model would not have been caught out like that. Moreover, he had aides-de-camp and servants to take care of that sort of thing.

There are photographs of Model wearing ribbon bars during WW2. The only photo showing a medal bar dates from the Reichsheer period. Model’s son, General Hansgeorg Model, who recovered his father’s remains in the 1950s, co-produced a book about his father in 1991, containing a selection of photographs from, presumably, the family archives. There is as yet no known photograph of Model in parade order (Waffenrock) from the 1935-1940 period.

Could this be an unmodified medal bar from his estate? Could he have had more than one? It is entirely possible but is it probable? A couple of those awards might have been harder than others to find during WW2 so it is probable that any upgrade to reflect the Russian campaign medal would have seen a bar like this disassembled and remounted.

Model’s son published a photo of his father's HOH3X certificate in the 1991 book. Given the son’s obvious pride in his father and other facts, such as his loan of some of his father’s effects for museum display, including a baton, I find it a bit hard to believe that he would have disposed of his father’s medal bar comprising such prestigious awards. It is possible, of course, but is it probable? There again, the medal bar might have been stolen by some Allied soldier from the family home.

Could it have been stolen from Model’s baggage after the GFM u. BT’s suicide? Maybe, but if the GFM u. BT were carrying it around, then one would expect to see it conforming to regulations, with a Winter War Medal in place. And if one were being pedantic, what about the Ehrenblattspange he received? An alternative scenario, if this medal bar truly belonged to Model, is that it was lent for display and disappeared, in which case the Model family would doubtless like to hear about it.

Paul Chepurko:

The proof is in the Reichwehr, army and navy, ranklists. I have looked through the ranklists and there is no other officer with this combination. Also it was not uncommon for an officer to NOT upgrade his medal bar with the no occupation medals (flower war). In regards to the EK2 clasp, I have seen pictures of Model wearing the clasp on the ribbon in the tunic. Once the war started a General did not have much need to wear a parade medal bar so it was not upgraded with clasps.

The ranklists are show that Model received this combination of awards during the 2nd Reich period but you are not the only person to have had access to these documents over the years. I can think of three high end collectors, including a friend of mine over there in the old New England region, who have commissioned medal bars for mannequins displaying Waffenrock belonging previously to military notables. One of the most skilled producers of medal bars is an Englishman now living in California.

These medal bars were not necessarily made to deceive people, as we can see, but made up from ‘orphaned’ Imperial awards for museum or collection display purposes. In the past, they were also put together as a way of moving on Imperial stuff in which few people were interested. In those days, if it didn’t have a swastika on it, it was unsaleable junk. As prices have risen, the dealers and dabblers have had to find ways of selling the previously unsaleable or irrelevant, hence the market in Iron Crosses and other stuff according to makers and this new market in newly attributable Imperial medal bars.

As for your conviction that this medal bar predates WW2, there seems little point in discussing it. I do not know the extent of your hands-on experience but no serious collector should ever rule out the possibility that he might have been gulled by a clever bit of fakery. It has happened to all of us. There are even those of us, like one fellow here, who find themselves inversely caught out in identifying originals as fakes.

I don't know if you remember the scandal over the so-called Paul Conrath RK documents a few years back or not but it serves as a signal warning that even the most experienced and intelligent collectors can be had. "It looks OK and the period documentation says it existed so it must be OK!" is really not a very strong argument.

Have you discussed this medal bar over on the WAF, where you are a moderator, or just here on GMIC?

PK

Edited February 6, 2010 by PKeating

[Paul C]

The disagreements here seem to hinge on wheather the bar is a postwar assemble and weather Model updated his medal bar during the war. I have seen many post war assemble bars and this is not one. If this was a post war assemble would not the person have included the EK2 spange and the Russian campaign medal? I have also seen many medalbars to high ranking officers and most combat generals were just to busy to be concerned about updating their medalbars while they were serving on the Russian front.

Also I have many pictures of Model and only a few should him wearing a ribbon bar. Most of the pics show him with his RK and a few badges. From the biographys I have read of Model he did not seem to be a man who cared about awards and decorations. I am sure he was more concerned with fighting the Russians then adding a EK2 spange or Russian campaign medal to his medal bar.

The strength of the identification rests upon the fact that Model was the only officer who had this combination of medals. The evidence, ranklists and pictures, that this is Model's bar is much, much stronger then the lack of evidence that it is not.

[dond]

I would also think an officer of his stature would not have recycled awards but would have commissioned an entirely new bar.

[Nick]

Please keep this discussion constructive. Trolling or personal attacks/remarks are not welcome and if they appear this topic will be permanently locked.

[PKeating]

The disagreements here seem to hinge on wheather the bar is a postwar assemble and weather Model updated his medal bar during the war. I have seen many post war assemble bars and this is not one. If this was a post war assemble would not the person have included the EK2 spange and the Russian campaign medal? I have also seen many medalbars to high ranking officers and most combat generals were just to busy to be concerned about updating their medalbars while they were serving on the Russian front.

Without wishing to seem gratuitously contrary, I think you're missing the point. Walter Model did not survive the war so the question about including the 1939 Iron Cross Bar 2nd Class and the Winter War Medal is a bit of a red herring. The veterans who wore their WW2 awards to reunions and various events prior to the 1957 decree and the introduction of denazified awards, mainly for Bundeswehr members, either removed the offending swastikas themselves or, in the case of awards like the Iron Cross, simply turned them back-to-front. Some of them, thumbing their noses at authority, did not bother. I do not know how Model would have addressed the issue between 1945 and 1957 but given his personality, he would probably have just worn the Nazi awards, swastikas and all, with reasonable confidence that nobody would mess with a Generalfeldmarschall und Brillantentrager.

In your opinion, the bar predates WW2. Opinions are subjective and while I do not wish to seem rude, many people with vast knowledge have been gulled by clever fakes and, note the word, reproductions. A tribute bar for display purposes would be a reproduction rather than a fake.

Also I have many pictures of Model and only a few should him wearing a ribbon bar. Most of the pics show him with his RK and a few badges. From the biographys I have read of Model he did not seem to be a man who cared about awards and decorations. I am sure he was more concerned with fighting the Russians then adding a EK2 spange or Russian campaign medal to his medal bar.

That is your opinion and, as such, rather subjective. He was concerned enough to wear one or both awards in his buttonhole and on his ribbon bar. It is possible that he might have not had a medal bar updated with new awards after 1939 but is it probable? According to your interpretation of the biographies, it is probable. I would have to disagree with you. Model was quite a vain and arrogant man and certainly very image-conscious. Perhaps his appearance on occasion was carefully calculated to appeal to the common man and common soldier? Like his Führer's painstakingly crafted dress sense and anti-style. Model was ridiculed by some of his peers for this. Therefore, we should agree to disagree.

The strength of the identification rests upon the fact that Model was the only officer who had this combination of medals. The evidence, ranklists and pictures, that this is Model's bar is much, much stronger then the lack of evidence that it is not.

Sure, but what is to prevent anyone with the requisite skills or with access to a craftsman with such skills from, for instance, using all these lists issuing from you and Rick to make up medal bars that can be attributed to interesting recipients? Moreover, you and Rick are not the only people in the world who have or have had access to this information and people have been faking medals and groups since medals were invented. Furthermore, there seems to be a developing market in medal bars, with some of the momentum doubtless provided by your collective fine work with all that OMSA data and other material you have been sourcing here and there.

I hope it turns out to Model's medal bar. If you don't feel up to writing to his son, I'll happily do so for you.

PK

Edited February 7, 2010 by PKeating

[Paul C]

PK, Everthing above is your opinion. I stand by my statement "The strength of the identification rests upon the fact that Model was the only officer who had this combination of medals. The evidence, ranklists and pictures, that this is Model's bar is much, much stronger then the lack of evidence that it is not".

Last November I did write to Hans-Georg Model and I did not receive a reply. Maybe I had an incorrect address. If you can provide a different address I will be happy to write him again.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Paul C

[Eric Stahlhut]

i liken this discussion to others which have had to do with whether or not an engraving on an award is contemporary or not. sometimes you just can't tell. i for one hope this medal bar is good.

[VtwinVince]

I am no expert on German order bars, although I have collected them somewhat over the years. The bottom line with this bar is provenance. Unless it came from the family, with proof, there is no way to ascertain 100% whether this spange belonged to Model or not.

[Naxos]

Yes, there is no 100% in this case ... (very few cases provide that percentage)

First, I have the greatest respect for Rick, Paul C and Prosper

Now

- Paul C has the bar in-hand and I trust his knowledge to identify a period-assembled bar - therefore I believe the medal-bar is an original.

- Rick and Paul's research by elimination leaves only one candidate for this medal-bar's configuration, Model.

- The probability that this medal-bar was made for GFM Model is high.

- Prosper's arguments are sound and should be made.

What we have here is a case of circumstantial evidence and circumstancial evidence, no matter how strong, can always (and should) be challenged.

However, even without direct evidence, I am satisfied that the medal bar shown by Paul C was indeed made for GFM Model.

H

Edited February 7, 2010 by Naxos

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

Although the line on this topic seems to be pretty well drawn between believers and non believers, there is something that

has not been mentioned that bothers me. I bring it up because I find it curious that no one has mentioned it, not to change

anyone’s mind.

In a few days, we will have the opportunity make our annual trek to the SOS in Louisville where we will once again have the

opportunity to buy von Richtofen’s medal bar, Goering’s Pour le Merite and countless EK1’s engraved to both the famous

and not so famous. The added value of a provenance.

Now as I understand it, this bar was not offered to Paul as belonging to GFM Model. Sure, a good forger could probably replicate

this bar rather easily, after all, there is nothing really exotic on it; but then, and this is important, why go through that effort without

attaching the “provenance”, which would increase it’s value by multiples? What are the odds of putting it out there and having someone

spot it who would connect the owner? That just doesn’t make sense to me. In my opinion, in this case the fact that this bar was offered

without a provenance is a plus.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Furthermore, there seems to be a developing market in medal bars, with some of the momentum doubtless provided by your collective fine work with all that OMSA data and other material you have been sourcing here and there.

Hello PKeatimg,

While going back through this thread, I came across your reference (above) to “...that OMSA data...”. Having been a member of OMSA for over thirty years, I have to admit that I am not aware of what data they have that would be of help with regard to this issue?

Could you please point me in the right direction?

Many thanks,

Wild Card

[webr55]

Now as I understand it, this bar was not offered to Paul as belonging to GFM Model. Sure, a good forger could probably replicate

this bar rather easily, after all, there is nothing really exotic on it; but then, and this is important, why go through that effort without

attaching the "provenance", which would increase it's value by multiples? What are the odds of putting it out there and having someone

spot it who would connect the owner? That just doesn't make sense to me. In my opinion, in this case the fact that this bar was offered

without a provenance is a plus.

Exactly. I was about to say that myself.

Chris

[PKeating]

The Devil's Advocate might suggest that it was an effective way of passing a clever fake with a high-earning potential into circulation. But someone has to ask the difficult questions, even if it results in waves of complaints to the webmaster from those facing the questions and their friends.

PK

Edited February 8, 2010 by PKeating

[Ulsterman]

Gentlemen,

Although the line on this topic seems to be pretty well drawn between believers and non believers, there is something that

has not been mentioned that bothers me. I bring it up because I find it curious that no one has mentioned it, not to change

anyone’s mind.

In a few days, we will have the opportunity make our annual trek to the SOS in Louisville where we will once again have the

opportunity to buy von Richtofen’s medal bar, Goering’s Pour le Merite and countless EK1’s engraved to both the famous

and not so famous. The added value of a provenance.

Now as I understand it, this bar was not offered to Paul as belonging to GFM Model. Sure, a good forger could probably replicate

this bar rather easily, after all, there is nothing really exotic on it; but then, and this is important, why go through that effort without

attaching the “provenance”, which would increase it’s value by multiples? What are the odds of putting it out there and having someone

spot it who would connect the owner? That just doesn’t make sense to me. In my opinion, in this case the fact that this bar was offered

without a provenance is a plus.

Regards,

Wild Card

EXACTLY!!!!

I am also now satisfied that this bar is the real deal.

PKs' adroit counterarguments, filled with nuance and extraneous evidence have sealed the deal for me too I might add. The contra is so much weaker than the pro that my doubts and suspicions (and I am a natural cynic) have been eased.

[Paul C]

Hello PKeatimg,

While going back through this thread, I came across your reference (above) to “...that OMSA data...”. Having been a member of OMSA for over thirty years, I have to admit that I am not aware of what data they have that would be of help with regard to this issue?

Could you please point me in the right direction?

Many thanks,

Wild Card

yes, I would like to above question answered by PK?

[Imperial]

Paul,

Congratulations on a wonderful and really outstanding bar. Your research has ferreted out from the woodwork a long lost piece of important history. I, for one, wish I had your set of skills. Kudos to the Rickmeister as well. His selfless devotion to helping others is one of the biggest benefits of being a member of this forum. I look forward to your future discoveries!

[militaria0815]

Now as I understand it, this bar was not offered to Paul as belonging to GFM Model. Sure, a good forger could probably replicate

this bar rather easily, after all, there is nothing really exotic on it; but then, and this is important, why go through that effort without

attaching the “provenance”, which would increase it’s value by multiples?

That's the point!

[W McSwiggan]

Is the Devil's Advocate then suggesting conspiracy with the forger on the part of Paul C and Rick Research? I can see no other conclusion to be drawn from your input. Without such collusion, how does the forger gain? If that is what you posit, I would then suggest - publicly not secretly - to the chairman and every moderator in earshot that your behavior is unacceptable on this forum.

The Devil's Advocate might suggest that it was an effective way of passing a clever fake with a high-earning potential into circulation. But someone has to ask the difficult questions, even if it results in waves of complaints to the webmaster from those facing the questions and their friends.

PK

[Wild Card]

I am no expert on German order bars, although I have collected them somewhat over the years. The bottom line with this bar is provenance. Unless it came from the family, with proof, there is no way to ascertain 100% whether this spange belonged to Model or not.

I cannot disagree with your position, but at the same time. I feel that there is room for legitimate flexibility on it.

Think of the numerous medal and ribbon bars that have been identified by the unique combination of their awards. If one chooses to discount them based on this

(not coming directly from the family) criteria, so be it. Next, think of the bars that have been identified not only by their composition, but by a flaw or other significant

characteristic, such as an incorrect sword device on a ribbon, which is confirmed by a photograph of the purported recipient wearing it; and so on.

I guess that in the end, we all have our standards.

Also, in taking this position, we are setting ourselves up for an important limitation. Only one party can obtain a piece directly from the family. Let me explain. If Heinz

buys a medal bar from the family and after a few years, he sells it to John who again holds it for a few years and then puts it in an auction where Wild Card buys it, is it

now any less legitimate than it was back when Heinz bought it from the family; and remember, anyone can claim that it came directly from the family or, more commonly,

that it came from a veteran who...

Who’s to know?

There is one other factor that can come into play here. I have a piece in my collection which I bought from a very reputable dealer. This piece came directly from the family.

I was asked not to reveal it’s source/provenance as doing so would cause embarrassment to the family which had fallen on hard times. No problem. The purchase agreement

was done before any mention of provenance came up. I think that this may happen more than we realize.

Just some thoughts. As I said, we all have our standards.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Les]

Now as I understand it, this bar was not offered to Paul as belonging to GFM Model. Sure, a good forger could probably replicate

this bar rather easily, after all, there is nothing really exotic on it; but then, and this is important, why go through that effort without

attaching the “provenance”, which would increase it’s value by multiples? What are the odds of putting it out there and having someone

spot it who would connect the owner? That just doesn’t make sense to me. In my opinion, in this case the fact that this bar was offered

without a provenance is a plus.

Regards,

Wild Card

In post 60 I said:

Someone wanting a "tribute bar" may not intend fraud or deception at all. They might have a display piece for their collection, but if it ever changed hands or was sold by the collector's estate, a "tribute" piece could subsequently take on a life of it's own.

No fraud or deception might have been intended by anyone. If the bar was sold by an estate who didn't know what it was, and there were no attached documents, a dealer or person selling the item, would not offer an attribution or provenance if the previous owner had died, or it had changed hands, and it's origins as a copy lost or forgotten.

There are also cases when an seller can't get anyone to buy the story, and offers it as is to move it with a price reduction and no story.

[Les]

I cannot disagree with your position, but at the same time. I feel that there is room for legitimate flexibility on it.

Think of the numerous medal and ribbon bars that have been identified by the unique combination of their awards. If one chooses to discount them based on this

(not coming directly from the family) criteria, so be it. Next, think of the bars that have been identified not only by their composition, but by a flaw or other significant

characteristic, such as an incorrect sword device on a ribbon, which is confirmed by a photograph of the purported recipient wearing it; and so on.

I guess that in the end, we all have our standards.

Also, in taking this position, we are setting ourselves up for an important limitation. Only one party can obtain a piece directly from the family. Let me explain. If Heinz

buys a medal bar from the family and after a few years, he sells it to John who again holds it for a few years and then puts it in an auction where Wild Card buys it, is it

now any less legitimate than it was back when Heinz bought it from the family; and remember, anyone can claim that it came directly from the family or, more commonly,

that it came from a veteran who...

Who’s to know?

There is one other factor that can come into play here. I have a piece in my collection which I bought from a very reputable dealer. This piece came directly from the family.

I was asked not to reveal it’s source/provenance as doing so would cause embarrassment to the family which had fallen on hard times. No problem. The purchase agreement

was done before any mention of provenance came up. I think that this may happen more than we realize.

Just some thoughts. As I said, we all have our standards.

Regards,

Wild Card

Prosper said early on, saying the bar is Model's make this a special case. If an item is said to belong to someone who is a well-known or high ranking individual, provenance can be a make or break issue. Look at what happened when the so-called Hitler diaries were announced, and the resultant outcome.

Because something looks right, that does not automatically mean it must be right. Looks and appearances can be deceiving.

Propser also mentioned even very knowledgeable collectors/dealers can get taken in. Several years ago, on another forum, a very interesting situation was reported in detail with the entire story of how George Peterson was sold an RK document grouping, that later turned out to have been fabricated. It took George ten years to discover the deception, when the family that supposedly had and sold the documents years before, and as events turned out, still had the original documents. Instead of derailing this thread, I'm thinking of starting a separate thread on it.

[dond]

If this bar had all his WW2 stuff on it I would buy the "tribute bar" story. Who would have said,"I think I shall make a tribute bar for GEN Model showing his pre-war stuff?"

If that's the case here is my Manfed von Richtofen tribute bar. I think I have his EK1 laying around here somewhere too.....

Edited February 8, 2010 by dond