Prussia Prussian Medal Bar - ID Possible?

[VtwinVince]

I'm going to restore this bar. I think the missing orders are RAO3mS, KO3 and a Hohenzollern Honor Cross with Crown. Any chance one of the research gurus can ID this one?

[Paul C]

A quick look and no match.

[VtwinVince]

Thanks for checking.

[Nicolas7507]

I would have thought of: RAO4, KO4 and HE3X

Did you already restore the bar?

 

Best regards,

Nicolas

[Utgardloki]

Nice bar!

When I change (add, restore, repair,...) something, I write that down and add a card to the piece. For me it is important to know, if something was changed.

Regards

[laurentius]

1 hour ago, Nicolas7507 said:

I would have thought of: RAO4, KO4 and HE3X

I agree here with Nicolas, we can see that the fourth ribbon has been fashioned for a decoration with the general size equal to an EK, which would in my opinion pount to a HE3x rather than a HoH.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Dave Danner]

There are a number of possibilities. Besides the options already listed, you could be looking for a Regierungs- und Schulrat with the RAO4, KO3 and HOH3A. I came across one close match, with all the Prussian decorations and the Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz, except he had the Oldenburg Friedrich-August Kreuz and did not have the ÖM3K

[VtwinVince]

I've put an RAO4mK, KO3 and a Hohenzollern Ehrenkreuz on it, all fit perfectly except the Hohenzollern definitely had a crown, you can see the impression in the ribbon.

[Dave Danner]

Regulations were not always followed perfectly, but the Fürstlich Hohenzollernsches Ehrenkreuz ranked after the Prussian 25 jähr. Dienstauszeichnungskreuz or the Landwehr-Dienstauszeichnung 1.Klasse (but before the LD2 and various Prussian Kriegsdenkmünzen). So if precedence was properly followed, the missing decoration should be a Royal House Order (Königlich Hohenzollernscher Hausorden).

[laurentius]

Dear VtwinVince,

would you happen to have some pictures of the restored medalbar?

Kind regards, Laurentius

[VtwinVince]

I will get a photo up when I'm back from holiday. I'm now leaning towards a peacetime HOH, not a Hohenzollern EK.

[VtwinVince]

So this is the current version. Clearly the RAO had a crown, so I'm assuming it was a fourth class. I'm speculating on the KO3, and clearly the HEK is not a match, since there is the outline of a crown impressed into the ribbon, and the precedence doesn't seem right, so I'm thinking maybe a peacetime HOH?

[ccj]

Looking good...

[VtwinVince]

Thanks, my sewing skills aren't great. I'm pretty convinced that it should be a peacetime HOH instead of a HEK, judging from the impressions in the ribbon, and the precedence would be right with a Prussian decoration.

[saschaw]

On 11/07/2019 at 08:06, Dave Danner said:

So if precedence was properly followed, the missing decoration should be a Royal House Order (Königlich Hohenzollernscher Hausorden).

However, a Royal House Order of Hohenzollern would outrank both the Red Eagle and Royal Crown order, unless it's just an Inhaberkreuz, but that, given to oldest NCO ranks, would hardly fit to the officer grade awards.

The group has been discussed before, by the way. Feel free to cross-check the older discussion, or maybe someone able to do so wants to unite both threads: https://gmic.co.uk/topic/57799-interesting-bar-but-what-do-you-think-is-missing/

If only a sharp and named portrait with the bar in wear would pop up - as it happend so many times before!

[VtwinVince]

Thanks Sascha. This one has been bugging me for some time. If it's a HEKmK in that position, I thought that wouldn't be right either, since this is clearly a Prussian bar and a Hohenzollern would classify as a 'foreign' decoration, or?

[saschaw]

The precedence is definitely wrong on this bar, you're right. It's messed up, and that doesn't make things easier. However, the bar clearly shows the very distinctive mounting traces of a Royal HOH... precedence could only be proper for a Royal HOH Inhaberkreuz, but then the combination makes no sense at all... maybe we're lucky and Daniel Krause will have another look here. In the mean time, the older thread I linked is worth to be re-read!

I just checked again at Gritzner, where the Kab.=Ordre vom 4. Dezember 1871, dealing with precedence on Prussian medal bars, is quoted: A Prussian Royal HOH knight's cross would outrank both RAO and KO, while the Princely HOH should be right behind the XXV long service cross, and definitely also behind the (here unmentioned) XX Landwehr cross. Later introduced awards brought only minor changes to that...

[VtwinVince]

You're right, it is weird. But the bar is definitely not messed with, at least until I got it. I'm still leaning towards a royal HOH, peacetime award that is not in the correct precedence.

[Wessel Gordon]

I have no knowledge of Prussian/German awards so all the medals and abbreviations used in this thread is a completely alien language to me but the restored bar look stunning. All I know of German awards is that Iron Crosses was awarded during the World Wars so I assume that's the medal referred to in this thread as a EK...am I correct?

The only thing even remotely close to that in my collection is a copy of a Pour le Merite without Oak Leaves that I bought on impulse because I loved the shade of blue and the way the gray and black of the ribbon combined with the medal itself.

I have also seen some copies on Ebay of the Blue Max of which the medal itself was any color under the sun but blue. I don't know how you German collectors feel but in my opinion that's just plain wrong and should be punishable. If you're going to the trouble of copying a medal at least try and make it resemble the original as close as possible.

As an example of what I said above see the link below.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pour+le+merite+images&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjX5N3stoDkAhVRMewKHRR0BjsQ4216BAgJECM&biw=800&bih=394#imgrc=R-7KsH4Z_jUMcM:

I'm under the impression that the PLM (Blue Max) was from the design stage meant to be blue so if the other colors in the link above denotes various classes or ranks please feel free to correct me.

 

[laurentius]

Dear Wessel Gordon,

regardless of how interesting the discussion about the various colours of the replica Pour le Mérite is, I think it wise to contain this thread to the unsolvable medalbar in VtwinVince's collection.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Wessel Gordon]

Laurentius,

My apologies.

[saschaw]

On 13/08/2019 at 18:00, VtwinVince said:

You're right, it is weird. But the bar is definitely not messed with, at least until I got it. I'm still leaning towards a royal HOH, peacetime award that is not in the correct precedence.

It seems I was a bit unclear, sorry: with "messed up" I was refering to the improper precedence, not the bar itself, that one is beyond any doubt. I still have no better idea than a peace time HOH3 that was unusually misplaced...

 

By the way, there were not too many HOH3 awarded, especially in those late years, under Wilhelm II's rule. Just like a dozen per year according to Ludvigsen, at best. It's odd we couldn't find him so far... those tricky Reserve/Landwehr officers!