Very unusual Bavarian Officers bar.....

[Chris Boonzaier]

This is the bar belonging to Doctor Fritz Erbse, He was a native of Rudolstadt, ....

The order is of course crazy, but seems professionally and period mounted?

He was born in 1875, so would have been over 60 when this was mounted, and no longer serving in any capacity... so the military control of how they are mounted would not have existed... but there must have been some kind of rhyme or reason behind it.

I do not know the origins of the bar, it is however a unique combination and the previous owner was able to identify it quite easily.

I am not a diehard "believe the piece, not the story"... and I am pretty convinced that no collector would ever, ever, ever have made such errors if they had mounted it for some "faker" purpose, it is simply totally way out there.... but after examining it, I think it is mounted as worn.... obviously not on an army uniform... maybe redcross...

Any thoughts welcome.....

Here is his Iron Cross

 

[spolei]

So I find the bar not unusual, except the last cross but everything is right. The Schwarzburger Kreuz should be ahead of the Red Cross awards. The King Ludwig Cross had to be filed according to the statutes, if an MVO was awarded. After the war, however, there were several bars with both awards. Nice bar.

Edited January 18, 2018 by spolei

[seeheld]

Great Medal Bar!

I like that bar very much!

Thanks for sharing.

regards 

Seeheld

[dond]

Nice find.

[laurentius]

Dear spolei

Does that mean that a king Ludwigcross had to be given back after a soldier received a MVO?

Kind regards, Laurentius

13 hours ago, spolei said:

So I find the bar not unusual, except the last cross but everything is right. The Schwarzburger Kreuz should be ahead of the Red Cross awards. The King Ludwig Cross had to be filed according to the statutes, if an MVO was awarded. After the war, however, there were several bars with both awards. Nice bar.

 

[Chris Boonzaier]

29 minutes ago, laurentius said:

Dear spolei

Does that mean that a king Ludwigcross had to be given back after a soldier received a MVO?

Kind regards, Laurentius

 

That is interesting! I assume they could simply not be worn together.

I read that only one MVO/MVK could be worn, but Ritter von Epp seems to wear half a dozen at the same time!

[Leutwein]

3 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

That is interesting! I assume they could simply not be worn together.

I read that only one MVO/MVK could be worn, but Ritter von Epp seems to wear half a dozen at the same time!

Hi all, 

 

it was allowed to wear different classes at the same time when they were awarded for different wars. vEpp received his MVOs for service in China, Southwestafrica and WW1.

 

Best wishes

 

Karsten 

[Chris Boonzaier]

Ahhhh... thanks Karsten, that had confused me for some time...

[spolei]

11 hours ago, laurentius said:

Dear spolei

Does that mean that a king Ludwigcross had to be given back after a soldier received a MVO?

Kind regards, Laurentius

 

Hello Laurentius,
The KLK did not have to be returned. According to statutes, it had to be dropped when a bavarian swords award was given. After the war one often sees bars with both awards. For the MVO / MVK all classes were allowed to be worn if they were acquired in different wars.

[Chris Boonzaier]

A silly question... why does the bavarian Red Cross cross on the left hand side not have a crown? Is it postwar?

[laurentius]

Dear Chris

Both of the red cross awards are from the weimar era, which explains the lack of a crown.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi, here is a thought..... is the Schwarzburger Kreuz something that could be worn in a buttonhole?

[webr55]

Fritz Erbse got his Dr. med. in 1902 from the University of Würzburg.

[GreyC]

Hi,

and this is the titel of his disseratation:

¬Ein Fall von Tetanus mit interessantem Rückenmarksbefunde.

 

GreyC

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi, just to help finishing a write up.... was the Schwarzburger Kreuz one of the awards which could be worn in the buttonhole?

[laurentius]

Dear Chris

Every award could be worn in the buttonhole, it was a matter of personal preference. If the recipient was fond of his Schwarzburg award he could have worn it in the buttonhole, perhaps he even wore it in combination with an iron cross ribbon and a MVO ribbon.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Chris Boonzaier]

I was wondering if it was a possible way of explaining why it is on the extreme right of the bar, 2 possibilities I could think of

1) As a Schwarzburg native, maybe he had it extreme right so it would be first if he wore it with a Frack?

2) Maybe he wore the bar in this form on civilian/SA/Redcross occasions but with the schwarzburg cross in the buttonhole (in the same way bavarian Bravery medal did) and added it late in life after removing some vereins medal

3) or maybe it is just because some things cannot really be explained, people simply do crazy sht.

[laurentius]

Dear Chris

After pondering for quite a while about this subject I came to the conclusion that the third option is the most logical. This medalbar is most certainly not a frack ( no reversed pin, no reversed ribbons, and most importantly, the gallantry awards would be at the end) and I also doubt that some vereins medal was removed to make place for this Schwarzburg cross. There is a nice FEK on the bar with an ample amount of space, I would dare to say that this bar was most certainly made during the third reich, long after the time of the Weimar republic and all it's carnavalsorders.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Claudius]

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 06:52, Chris Boonzaier said:

I was wondering if it was a possible way of explaining why it is on the extreme right of the bar, 2 possibilities I could think of

1) As a Schwarzburg native, maybe he had it extreme right so it would be first if he wore it with a Frack?

2) Maybe he wore the bar in this form on civilian/SA/Redcross occasions but with the schwarzburg cross in the buttonhole (in the same way bavarian Bravery medal did) and added it late in life after removing some vereins medal

3) or maybe it is just because some things cannot really be explained, people simply do crazy sht.

I have another explanation.  It is really a modified #2 and a little of #3.  But above all I try to apply Occam's Razor to the question.

Doctor Fritz Erbse was from Rudolstadt(Schwarzburg) but clearly during the war he was active and recognized by other States when he was awarded combatant class decorations from at least two other States as well as Prussia (EKII). 

However before the war he likely served in some capacity (as a Doctor?), in his native Rudolstadt, where I'm guessing he earned a NON-Combatant Schwarzburg Cross (3rd or 4th class).  There may have been previous mountings of Dr. Erbse awards before 1934, however in 1934 he decided to mount them again, including the non-combatant Schwarzburg cross, in its correct position at the end of the bar. 

It was only after this mounting, that the Principality of Schwarzburg recognized their mistake in not awarding their fellow countryman and back awarded awarded him a COMBATANT Schwarzburg cross for his service in the war.  Post war awards are not uncommon.

The Schwarzburg Cross/swords supercedes the non-combatant one both would not be worn.  And it's here where the 50+ year old doctor didn't want to "reorder" the whole bar and just requested that with Swords version be swapped in where the non-combatant version was.

[Dave Danner]

1 hour ago, Claudius said:

I have another explanation.  It is really a modified #2 and a little of #3.  But above all I try to apply Occam's Razor to the question.

Doctor Fritz Erbse was from Rudolstadt(Schwarzburg) but clearly during the war he was active and recognized by other States when he was awarded combatant class decorations from at least two other States as well as Prussia (EKII). 

However before the war he likely served in some capacity (as a Doctor?), in his native Rudolstadt, where I'm guessing he earned a NON-Combatant Schwarzburg Cross (3rd or 4th class).  There may have been previous mountings of Dr. Erbse awards before 1934, however in 1934 he decided to mount them again, including the non-combatant Schwarzburg cross, in its correct position at the end of the bar. 

It was only after this mounting, that the Principality of Schwarzburg recognized their mistake in not awarding their fellow countryman and back awarded awarded him a COMBATANT Schwarzburg cross for his service in the war.  Post war awards are not uncommon.

The Schwarzburg Cross/swords supercedes the non-combatant one both would not be worn.  And it's here where the 50+ year old doctor didn't want to "reorder" the whole bar and just requested that with Swords version be swapped in where the non-combatant version was.

Prior to the war, Erbse was a praktischer Arzt in Mitwitz in Oberfranken, Bavaria.

Erbse was awarded the Ehrenkreuz 3. Klasse mit Schwertern on 26.1.1917. It was awarded for his service as a Stabsarzt d.R. in III./7.bay.IR and as Regimentsarzt of the 7.bay.IR in the early months of the war. It was not an upgrade to a prewar Ehrenkreuz. 

He also received the Iron Cross for his service at the front in 1914. These were both combatant awards. The non-combatant König Ludwig Cross was awarded for his service in Reserve-Lazarett Bayreuth I from 1915 to 1917. In April 1917, apparently in recognition of the fact that he had been decorated for his service at the front by both Prussia and Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt, but not by Bavaria, the Bavarian authorities approved the Military Merit Order 4th Class with Swords. 

He returned to the front later in 1917 with the 21.bay.IR, whose Inhaber was the Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin. This is why he received the MMV2. 

For some states, post-war awards are not uncommon, but this is not true for Schwarzburg. The last awards were made in November 1918. The princely house of Schwarzburg was extinct before this bar was made.
 

[Claudius]

18 minutes ago, Dave Danner said:

Prior to the war, Erbse was a praktischer Arzt in Mitwitz in Oberfranken, Bavaria.

Erbse was awarded the Ehrenkreuz 3. Klasse mit Schwertern on 26.1.1917. It was awarded for his service as a Stabsarzt d.R. in III./7.bay.IR and as Regimentsarzt of the 7.bay.IR in the early months of the war. It was not an upgrade to a prewar Ehrenkreuz. 

He also received the Iron Cross for his service at the front in 1914. These were both combatant awards. The non-combatant König Ludwig Cross was awarded for his service in Reserve-Lazarett Bayreuth I from 1915 to 1917. In April 1917, apparently in recognition of the fact that he had been decorated for his service at the front by both Prussia and Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt, but not by Bavaria, the Bavarian authorities approved the Military Merit Order 4th Class with Swords. 

He returned to the front later in 1917 with the 21.bay.IR, whose Inhaber was the Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin. This is why he received the MMV2. 

For some states, post-war awards are not uncommon, but this is not true for Schwarzburg. The last awards were made in November 1918. The princely house of Schwarzburg was extinct before this bar was made.
 

Apparently, none of my suppositions withstand these facts. 

Considering he served in a Bavarian unit and in another unit under the auspicious of the Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, perhaps Erbse considered the Schwarzburg cross to be a "foreign" award and put it justifiably at the end of the bar. 

[dond]

To me it looks like Big state to little state order of precedence.

[Stogieman]

Interesting bar and an interesting read. Thanks

[Chris Boonzaier]

Here is a write up to include some of the actions he took part in in 1918 http://www.kaiserscross.com/40312/633501.html

[Jeanine]

Hi,

I came across your post while searching for a memorial in Rudolstadt for my great grandfather Dr. Fritz Erbse. He was a brilliant surgeon and „country doctor“ serving the larger community of Mitwitz and its surroundings. He often wouldn’t even take payment from poor people and instead got chickens/eggs etc as a grateful payment. I had no idea he was awarded this bar.