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1 hour ago, laurentius said:

Dear Spolei,

thanks for your reply. I fear I won' t be able to show you the back of the agraffe, since the order is sown down tightly. You say that the swords are early Hemmerle. Would I be correct in saying the entire cross is early (pre-1916)?

Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius

Hello Laurentius,
there is no sign for silver guilt. This will be real golden medaillons. The satincolour of the lion and the "L" could be patina.
The medaillons of my cross are older, they differ a little bit to yours.

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I also want to show a MVK again. It is a 1st class of the 2nd form (1905-1913)

 

MVK 1. Klasse 2. Form VSuRS.jpg

MVK 1. Klasse 2. Form Etui.jpg

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I do not see it. The picture is not optimal. Just look at the belt buckle.

 

 

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15 hours ago, eurorders said:

Is this one likely Leser or Weiss & Co. manufacture? 

P1020032.JPG

Hello, ist is a Leser MVO. The loop of the order is like a ball, typical for Leser.

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thanks, I appreciate it  I still like studying the following medal bar even though it is part military and part civil/diplomatic 

a 12-place medal bar from pre 1920 imperial Germany.jpg

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I'd like to showcase this MVO I've had for many years. After reading this thread, I believe it is a Leser, 1917 era. It has 950 on the cross body, and 900 on the swords and ribbon ring. However, I am still unable to figure out what makes a 3rd class vs. 4th class. I see 3rd class medals with the same 950/900 markings on them.

Would the collective experts be so kind as to help me out?

IMG_9583.JPG

IMG_9582.JPG

IMG_9577.JPG

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Dear TJLA,

the difference between a 3rd class and a 4th class is the flames. Third class has flames which are screwed in, and fourth class has them made together with the cross body. I believe your piece is a 4th class.

Kind regards, Laurentius

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Hi Laurentius,

So how would one know, back in the day, when coming up on an officer what he was awarded? For instance, imagine a bunch of officers standing around having a chat in dress uniform, one would not walk up and eyeball how the flames are screwed in to see if this gent was awarded a 3rd or 4th class.

Is there any other way to identify this? Seems incredibly complicated to understand even if one was in the Bavarian Army lol.

 

thanks!

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Dear TJLA,

most third class pieces are gold, whilst only some are silver gilt. Colour would be the first indicator. Next to that there would also be other awards in their respective grades, together with the rank insignae of the officer. Most of the rules we collectors take years to master were written down in handy books for officers, as to not emberass themselves.

Kind regards, Laurentius

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The amount of the award was based on the position and not on the rank. For example Company commander, regimental leader, battalion commander, etc. The fourth class was the most widespread and was lent from the first officer grade. If the MVO was awarded the same rank a second time, it would be the next higher class , or the officer got a higher position in the army. The silver guilt MVO were given since 1917.  To save resources, there was an order that no real gold awards may be awarded.

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Ok, now I understand. You would know the the medal class based on unit position then rank. In the military this is not so much a problem to remember as they beat the ranks into you during initial training so you will always remember. :) 

Is my assessment correct then that this is a Lesser, possibly 1917 or later model? (I'm basing it on the Lion not being gold but rather gilt).

Edited by TJLA

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It ist a Leser, the last type with silver guilt medaillons, given from 1917 till the end of war.

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21 hours ago, TJLA said:

Hi Laurentius,

So how would one know, back in the day, when coming up on an officer what he was awarded? For instance, imagine a bunch of officers standing around having a chat in dress uniform, one would not walk up and eyeball how the flames are screwed in to see if this gent was awarded a 3rd or 4th class.

Is there any other way to identify this? Seems incredibly complicated to understand even if one was in the Bavarian Army lol.

 

thanks!

I am no expert in Bavarian orders, but isn't it that back in the day the 4th class was silver and the 3rd class gold?

Later in the war the gold-awards were made out of gilded silver.

So it was easy to distinguish the classes - gold: 3rd class, silver: 4th class,

For us collectors it is not that easy, the gilding wears out over the time, so former silver gilded ones appear silver, and it is easy to increase the value by gilding silver 4th classes to let them look like 3rd classes, so the screwed in flames is something to look at for collectors to distinguish.

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I've noted the screwed in flames has been mentioned in this thread before but I am unable to find any pictures of how to tell the difference between screwed in and non screwed in. Using the side pic of mine, how does one tell the difference?

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Hello,
look here this third class.
https://woeschler-orden.de/node/2834
In the third class, there must be a narrow gap between the cross arms and the flames.
The third grade is lighter because the flames are hollow. In the fourth grade, the cross body with the flames is of one piece.

Edited by spolei

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My first BMVO With swords and crown from Weiss and Co. A little wrought around the edges, but I think a nice piece for my Bavarian Military Merit collection. 

Can anyone tell me why the blue enamel is very dark I though it was supposed to be more transparent which is the way it shows in the photos?

BMVO - obv 2.jpg

BMVO - rev 2.jpg

BMVO - trade mark 2.jpg

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Hello Chuck,

The enamel looks fine on your MVO 4th with Crown and Swords by Weiss u. Co.  Each maker (Weiss, Leser, Gebruder Hemmerle, etc) had their own blue enamel shade.  Your enamel is of the correct shade and is translucent which is correct.

In my experience, the Gebruder Hemmerle pieces usually have the lightest shade of blue which is therefore more translucent and it is easier to see the "herringbone" pattern underneath.  The Weiss pieces have a shade darker than the G.H. pieces, and the Jakob Leser pieces have the darkest shade.

Best regards,

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Quote

Shiessplatzmeister, 

Thank you very much for your response. I really think the Bavarians made one of the best looking imperial awards. 

Regards, 

Chuck 

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