Bavaria What do you know about Bavarian MVOs and MVKs

[graham]

Thanks scottplen. Waldo you look pretty close with your prices, the EK2 can have a large price variation depending on the manufacturer, quality and whether it is a cast iron core or stamped steel.

[scottplen]

6 hours ago, waldo said:

So I thank you when I get information .....

For the price, which is MVK 2 X = 120 euros, EK 2 = 35 euros, Kyffhäuser = 10 euros, 
DA 9 = 20 euros, DA LW = 30 euros, clasp 50 euros, total 265 euros. 
The prices apply to Germany and can probably be achieved on ebay. 
More expensive at dealers.

Thank you .

dealer offered it to me for $375 with shipping .

i may do it since I know it’s a good MVK2 ?

[Michael Shaun]

Can anyone please help with maker? Or even if it's good? My concerns lie in the cypher, no Cross at top of crown and I can not find a match to the ... pattern in the L. Thanks in advance.

[waldo]

Servus Michael,

the MVK 2 X is an original from the manufacturer Leser. Easily recognized by 
the belt buckle, the agraffe and the swords.

regards
Walter

[Michael Shaun]

Thank you very much Walter! And also thanks for the tips on identification. It's much appreciated.

Mike

[LuckySlevin]

Hi all, 

 

Very informative and interesting thread. 

I wanted to ask a question concerning the gold-platted 4 class MVOs with gold center medallions. 

Is there a specific reason that some of the 4 class MVOs are gold-plated while most are not (both having gold center medallions) ?

 

 

 

 

[spolei]

Hello, by order of the Bavarian Ministry of War from beginning of 1917 onwards, awards were only allowed to be made and delivered in gold-plated silver. The main reason for this was to save costs. In Prussia, the awards were changed to gold-plated silver much earlier. The Bavarian bravery medal was also issued silver-gilded. 20 grams of gold was worth a lot of money. With it you could already procure a lot of other armaments.

[CRBeery]

I found a box!

[LuckySlevin]

13 hours ago, spolei said:

Hello, by order of the Bavarian Ministry of War from beginning of 1917 onwards, awards were only allowed to be made and delivered in gold-plated silver. The main reason for this was to save costs. In Prussia, the awards were changed to gold-plated silver much earlier. The Bavarian bravery medal was also issued silver-gilded. 20 grams of gold was worth a lot of money. With it you could already procure a lot of other armaments.

Thank you for your reply. 

I understand the passage from gold to gold-plated during the war. What I was wondering is the following:

If you see a gold-platted MVO with no separate flames like the ones which were posted before, then this MVO is not a 3rd class. Then the question is, what motivated/what was the reason to apply gold to a 4th class, which does not require gold(except for medallions ) and especially when the gold was scarce? 

 

 

 

 

[waldo]

Servus Lucky,
I do not understand your question completely. The MVO was originally 
donated in 5 classes in 1866. Namely the Grand Cross, the Grand Commander, 
the Commander, the Knights 1. These crosses had flames between the arms 
of the cross. Knight 2nd class as well as military merit cross, these 
without flames between the arms of the cross. Another class, 
the Officer's Cross, was created in 1900. This was available with and 
without flames between the arms of the cross.
In terms of ranking, this officer's cross was classified between the 
Commander's Cross and Knight 1. Until then, all classes up to knight 2 
were made in gold, the medallions of the Military Cross of Merit were 
also made in gold. At the end of 1905 this classification was reorganized. 
Grand Cross, 1st class, 2nd class with and without a star, 3rd class and 
4th class with and without a crown as well as the Military Merit Cross 
1st and 2nd class. From 1905 (until the end of 1916) all classes up to 
3rd grade were gold, 4th grade silver with gold medallions on the front 
and back. From the end of 1913, the Military Cross of Merit was donated 
in 3 classes with and without a crown. The 1st class had real gold 
medallions on the front until 1916. From 1917 all classes and medallions 
made in gold were made in gold-plated silver. 
A little difficult and extensive. I'll try to make this classification 
clearer soon.

With friendly greetings

Walter

[LuckySlevin]

On 02/09/2019 at 13:00, waldo said:

Servus Graham, 

For all original 3rd classes, the flames must be extra and not cast 
with the cross body. Also with the silver gilt pieces. 

I do not see it exactly in this piece. If the flames were not 

mounted extra, then it is a gold plated 4th grade

regards Walter

 

3 hours ago, waldo said:

Servus Lucky,
I do not understand your question completely. The MVO was originally 
donated in 5 classes in 1866. Namely the Grand Cross, the Grand Commander, 
the Commander, the Knights 1. These crosses had flames between the arms 
of the cross. Knight 2nd class as well as military merit cross, these 
without flames between the arms of the cross. Another class, 
the Officer's Cross, was created in 1900. This was available with and 
without flames between the arms of the cross.
In terms of ranking, this officer's cross was classified between the 
Commander's Cross and Knight 1. Until then, all classes up to knight 2 
were made in gold, the medallions of the Military Cross of Merit were 
also made in gold. At the end of 1905 this classification was reorganized. 
Grand Cross, 1st class, 2nd class with and without a star, 3rd class and 
4th class with and without a crown as well as the Military Merit Cross 
1st and 2nd class. From 1905 (until the end of 1916) all classes up to 
3rd grade were gold, 4th grade silver with gold medallions on the front 
and back. From the end of 1913, the Military Cross of Merit was donated 
in 3 classes with and without a crown. The 1st class had real gold 
medallions on the front until 1916. From 1917 all classes and medallions 
made in gold were made in gold-plated silver. 
A little difficult and extensive. I'll try to make this classification 
clearer soon.

With friendly greetings

Walter

Dear Waldo, 

Thank you  for your answer. Actually my question is directly related to one of your previous answers. 

If you see a gold-plated 4th class MVO (not speaking about medallions) does this mean that this a consequence of a falsification to pretend it is a 3th class? Or there are other reasons which could lead to having 4th class gold-plated MVO. 

 

Thank you

 

 

[waldo]

Hello Lucky,

As previously written, all golden parts or crosses that were made 
of gold were only made of gold-plated silver from 1917 onwards. 
Also the MVO 3rd class.

It is important that the flames of the MVO 3rd class are used 
separately, i.e. not included in the casting. This does not apply to 
the 4th grade !!!

If you are offered a 3rd class MVO, silver gold-plated, always look 
at the flames to see whether they were also used later. This also 
applies to the higher classes.

I hope that I have now understood your question correctly and that 
you are satisfied with my answer.

Best wishes
Walter

Edited May 9, 2021 by waldo

[LuckySlevin]

59 minutes ago, waldo said:

Hello Lucky,

As previously written, all golden parts or crosses that were made 
of gold were only made of gold-plated silver from 1917 onwards. 
Also the MVO 3rd class.

It is important that the flames of the MVO 3rd class are used 
separately, i.e. not included in the casting. This does not apply to 
the 4th grade !!!

If you are offered a 3rd class MVO, silver gold-plated, always look 
at the flames to see whether they were also used later. This also 
applies to the higher classes.

I hope that I have now understood your question correctly and that 
you are satisfied with my answer.

Best wishes
Walter

Dear Waldo, 

Yes, thank you a lot for the confirmation!

[balthasar]

Hello!
Is it original or fake? Ribbon is modern.

[VtwinVince]

Hmmm, looks like someone pulled the swords on that one.

[laurentius]

3 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

Hmmm, looks like someone pulled the swords on that one.

I agree, you can see differences in colour (the silver colour is less discoloured) where the swords used to be. Maybe the swords were removed to improve the price, maybe the piece got damaged and lost the swords. Shame either way. Cross seems original to me.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[waldo]

Servus,

I mean that the cross has been upgraded. The front medallion does 
not look originally enamelled. Better pictures of the VS medallion 
would be helpful. I wouldn't want it. There are better pieces.

Best wishes
Walter

[balthasar]

Thank you for your responses! Here's another photo. What are the opinions?

[waldo]

It's a good one.

[Marcus66]

Would anyone be able to help me with this one?  Is it real, and if so whom is the manufacturer?  Thanks so much

 

Marcus

[graham]

Marcus, I do not recognize this one at all. I do not believe it is an original.

 

[waldo]

Marcus, I think it's not a fake but a piece after 1918. The manufacturer should be Leser.

 

[spolei]

Hello Marcus, it is a postwar production. I don't know the manufacturer. the medaillons look lik early Leser, but the cross and the swords are a new design.
In my collection are three MVK's of this manufacturer.
 

Edited July 28, 2021 by spolei

[Marcus66]

Thanks everyone for replying. When you say post war, does that mean WW1?

 

Thanks again

 

Marcus

12 hours ago, spolei said:

Hello Marcus, it is a postwar production. I don't know the manufacturer. the medaillons look lik early Leser, but the cross and the swords are a new design.
In my collection are three MVK's of this manufacturer.
 

Post ww1?  Do you know a time frame?

 

Thanks again

 

Marcus

[BlackcowboyBS]

Post war related to imperial medals allways means between wwI and wwII.