Hauptmann Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Posting this one for Nick Link (Obergefreiter). I realize there are no reverse views so am contacting him to see if he can provide same. But for now here's the medal bar with matching ribbon bar: Over to you Nick... Dan :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Fantasy carnival bar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Why not a Weimar era vanity bar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) Why not a Weimar era vanity bar? because the man must have belonged to every club and organisation - but even if it is period assembled - it still is a "fantasy carnival bar" Edited April 30, 2012 by Naxos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtwinVince Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Isn't this the one that was for sale over at WAF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapten_windu Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Isn't this the one that was for sale over at WAF? yes, i also see it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obergefreiter Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) Alright, Gents, you've answered my questions. And thanks for saving me $450 bucks. :cheers: Edited April 30, 2012 by Obergefreiter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapten_windu Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 The exact same ribbon bar is also on sale in another thread with some other long ribbon bar that looks very clean.. The seller is also the same person.. Windu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedytop Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) Hi, just for fun! I have a set of b/w copies of decorations and documents of one man. Leutnant a.D.d.R., party member, and a friend of Prinz AuWi. There are three medalbars (it could be, that you can combine two of them), with 23-25 decorations, some single decorations (not all with documents), and a mini chain with (only) 14 minis. Here is the list of his documents for several decorations: EK 2 Sa-Altenburg: Tapferkeitsmedaille EK 1 Oberland: Gedenkmünze für Oberschlesien Oberland: Tiroler Adler Schlesischer Adler I. und II. Klasse (one document) Kyffhäuser-Bund: Kriegsdenkmünze 1914/18 Bayern: Goldene Hochzeits-Erinnerungsmünze Deutsche Ehrendenkmünze des Weltkrieges mit Kampfabzeichen Ehren- und Erinnerungskreuz des Marinekorps Flandern (2x) Infanterie-Rgiment 380: Regiments-Erinnerungszeichen in Bronze Sächsisches Kriegs-Ehrenkreuz 1914/18 I. Klasse am weißgrünen Band Deutscher Volksorden: Deutsch-Bekenntniskreuz I. Klasse Kreuz der sächsischen Ehrenlegion Frontkriegerbund: Frontkreuz Deutscher Trainbund: Trainkreuz Bund der Verdun- und Argonnenkämpfer: Ehrenzeichen für Verdun- und Argonnen-Kämpfer (3 documents) Österreichische Ehrenlegion: K.E.K. mit Schwertern Deutscher Volksorden: Komturkreuz (nowhere listed) Ehrenbund Sächsischer Weltkriegsteilnehmer: Goldenes Ehrenkreuz mit Schwertern Sachsenbund deutscher Weltkriegsteilnehmer: Sächsisches Kriegsehrenkreuz 1914/18 Ritterkreuz I. Klasse Bund der Somme- und Champagne-Kämpfer: Somme- und Champagne-Kreuz (2 documents) Prinz Alfons-Erinnerungszeichen auf blauem Bande and later Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 1. Oktober 1938 Uwe Edited April 30, 2012 by speedytop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.F. Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I am not sure how you can totally evaluate a bar with only 50% of the information... Looks like a legit Weimar ensemble to me. Kind regards Pierce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.F. Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 The exact same ribbon bar is also on sale in another thread with some other long ribbon bar that looks very clean.. The seller is also the same person.. Windu Hi Windu, I was curious as to what you are trying to say here so out of this curiosity I took a look at the sellers other ribbon bars for sale and in my opinion they are all genuine. In fact I would even call some of those Weimar ribbon bars uncommon at the very least. Kind regards Pierce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Hello Gents, I am the current owner of the medal/ribbon bar grouping in question. It is offered for sale at the WAF e-stand. What I'm confused about is why this bar is being evaluated here using only the front view? Additionally, I'm wondering why there's concern about ribbon bars just because they look very clean. And I don't know what is meant by "carnival bar." I will say that I disagree with the tact of assuming something minty and clean is suspect because of its condition. It would be a more productive discussion to take the bar and analyze its construction, its awards, and its award precedence. Many items can still be found in mint condition, especially ribbon bars. They were worn less frequently than other items, and were often stored in a drawer or boxed away. Soldiers frequently had multiple bars to their name. New bars might be purchased as they gained awards, and the old ones would no longer be worn. The chances of finding an excellent to mint condition ribbon bar is higher than finding other things in the same condition that were worn and used more, or during combat situations. I am a high condition collector. I have to go through countless dealers and meet countless collectors to find pieces like this. The fact that I have acquired so many is a testament to a dedicated and focused search. I pass on most bars I see because of condition, or more likely, because they're fake or tampered with in some way. I am a Luftwaffe collector of officer and general rank. When I began seeking longer Luftwaffe bars for my uniforms, they were insanely difficult to source. I began ferreting out longer non branch-specific ribbon bars in the interim. Now that my Luftwaffe ribbon bar collection is healthy, I no longer need these. This is why you see many high condition, long ribbon bars for sale at once. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 ...in my my opinion they are all genuine. In fact I would even call some of those Weimar ribbon bars uncommon at the very least. Kind regards Pierce You should certainly acquire them then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.F. Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 You should certainly acquire them then. Why? I do not collect Weimar bars.... but those who may be interested should not be put off by what is inferred here about the seller's goods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) And I don't know what is meant by "carnival bar." During the Weimar time these unofficial veteran's club decorations were often by WWI front soldiers referred to as "Karnevalsorden" - Hence the term carnival bar. Edited April 30, 2012 by Naxos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) Hi Gentlemen! I don't see any problems with the above-mentioned bar. Such bars really existed and usually have all sorts of Veteran Associations decorations; you just had to be a member of different groups/associations in order to be entitled to get them. They were worn for a relatively short period, because in 1934 most of these medals weren't allowed to be worn on bars, because the Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer was issued and should have replaced all these ones. Many of such bars where cannibalized in order to put together new bars with medals that could be worn according the regulation of post 1934. Some bars just remained in draws or cases, carefully stored by their proud owner. Check please my earlier thread on Weimar medal bars: http://gmic.co.uk/in...l +bars +weimar Just my 2 cents... don't worry Jason your medal and ribbon bar are ok; the fact that also rare 15mm ribbons are on the ribbon bars speaks for the authenticity of this group. ciao, Claudio Edited April 30, 2012 by Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.F. Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Check please my earlier thread on Weimar medal bars: http://gmic.co.uk/in...l +bars +weimar ciao, Claudio Some very nice medal groups there Claudio! Kind regards Pierce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 During the Weimar time these unofficial veteran's club decorations were often by WWI front soldiers referred to as "Karnevalsorden" - Hence the term carnival bar. Thank you for clarifying that. Without that knowledge, labeling a piece a "carnival bar" sounds like one is saying it's not an authentic bar. What it really means is that the bar contains awards for associations that some front-line soldiers turned their nose at. In this case, we have a solid, authentic grouping. I see no evidence provided to the contrary; karnevalsorden speaks to the some of the awards only, not to the authenticity of the piece. I think it's fair to make that distinction clear. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Hi Gentlemen! I don't see any problems with the above-mentioned bar. really have all sorts of Veteran Associations decorations. They were worn for a relatively short period, because in 1934 most of these medals weren't allowed to be worn on bars, because the Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer was issued and should have replaced all these ones. Many of such bars where cannibalized in order to put together new bars with medals that could be worn according the regulation of post 1934. Some bars just remained in draws or cases, carefully stored by their proud owner. Check please my earlier thread on Weimar medal bars: http://gmic.co.uk/in...l +bars +weimar Just my 2 cents... don't worry Jason your medal and ribbon bar are ok; the fact that also rare 15mm ribbons are on the ribbon bars speaks also for the authenticity of this group. ciao, Claudio Claudio - thank you for taking the time to lend your expertise here. I certainly appreciate it. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Thank you for clarifying that. Without that knowledge, labeling a piece a "carnival bar" sounds like one is saying it's not an authentic bar. What it really means is that the bar contains awards for associations that some front-line soldiers turned their nose at. In this case, we have a solid, authentic grouping. I see no evidence provided to the contrary; karnevalsorden speaks to the some of the awards only, not to the authenticity of the piece. I think it's fair to make that distinction clear. Jason Sorry Jason, I have no good reason to doubt the originality of the bar - just have an opinion on these kind of bars. And to clarify "fantasy" I meant the imagination of the wearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I really like these bars; they were worn proudly by veterans that didn't have the chance to be awarded beautiful enameled dinastic orders which were given only to senior staff officers who most of them didn't even see the front or came close to it. But of course there were also a lot of associations members who bestowed on themselves and were in different veteran groups just for the sake of having as much bling-bling as possible. I find such bars quite characteristic of the confused Weimar Republic era. To me it's quite interesting despite the fact that such awards don't command high prices or have a bad reputation because considered self-awarded pieces. I noticed however how prices increased also for such pieces, maybe because some more "sexy" enameled order or kriegsorden became insanely expensive (see also Thies' auction). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Odd is that the Bavarian award is in front of the Iron Cross - indicating that the wearer was a strong Bavarian national - yet he is a member of some very Prussian organizations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Sorry Jason, I have no good reason to doubt the originality of the bar - just have an opinion on these kind of bars. And to clarify "fantasy" I meant the imagination of the wearer. I appreciate you clarifying that. You can see how a label of "fantasy carnival bar" without further explanation might inadvertently steer somebody in the wrong direction. Incorrect assumptions can easily be made, so it's important these things are discussed in a thoughtful and productive manner. Thanks for revisiting the discussion. Best regards, Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I would like to highlight the fact that this particular soldier saw front-line service of some sort, given the Bavarian Bravery medal and the Iron Cross, 2nd Class. Then it appears he was very active in veterans associations after the war. J- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 a Karnival bar to a Saxon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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