Nice NK bar for my collection.

[CRBeery]

I picked this bar up about six months ago and I had hoped to find a name to go with it. I know it’s pretty thin but I tried and even bought an extra Rank List to see if it helped. No luck! I am thinking this gentleman was a Zahlmeister in the 8th Infantry Division but I can’t find him. The Saxon medal is gilted silver. Any ideas on where to look?

[Paul C]

I think most likely an official and not in ranklists.

[Daniel Krause]

Nice one!

I would bet on Zahlmeister Dröder from IR 63.

He was still in the Reichsheer after WW1 as Oberzahlmeister.

He had additional a Ernestinian duchies long service award which was replaced by the Wehrmacht 25.

Only thing what bothers me in that; he had as well an Altenburg Jubilee Medal,  which is not shown at the bar.

 

Best,

Daniel

[Nicolas7507]

Very nice and well-made medal bar. 

I have a similiar "Zahlmeister" type of ribbon bar from Anhalt. Any chance for an ID here?

Best regards

Nicolas

[VtwinVince]

Very nice NK bar, and a fairly obscure combo.

[CRBeery]

Daniel, 

How did you find this so fast? I have spent hours and nothing? I must be missing a key piece of research material or I just need more experience.

Thanks for the help and all of the comments. This is not a typical bar for my collection as I usually buy Imperial only bars but this one really caught my attention.

[Daniel Krause]

My late friend Rick would call us "wizards" ?

Nicolas,  in this case, if it it a Zahlmeister as well, I bet on Gustav Schöne from IR 93.

born 1874, between the wars civil Official, in 1934 Verwaltungsoberinspektor a.D.

Maybe he was recalled for service to rejoin the Wehrmacht...

In contrary to active Officers, these Officials did easily serve until their high 60ies.

 

Best,

Daniel

[Nicolas7507]

Sounds good, danke dir Daniel!

It is interesting to see that most of these officials ended up in fairly low ranks in comparison to their sometimes very long serving time.

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by Nicolas7507

[Daniel Krause]

FAR 32,

Thank you for your nice words ?

over the last 20 years I put together dates and names for ten thousands of decorated people in WW1 and after.

That required for example reading over 500 regimental histories, more that 150 regimental officers lists, thousands of pages in newspapers and putting together dozends of award rolls into some bigger files.

For the Prussian Army I can answer questions for about 50.000 noticeable decorated Officers, Doctors and Officials.

But all together, I can - as seen - sometimes give an answer, but I can not in every case say where every bit of info came from.

My short sentence about "wizards" was a joke, like my friend Rick quite often called us. I did not intend to insult somebody.

 

Best, 

Daniel 

[Daniel Krause]

@CRBeery

A bit more, according to Siekmanns Taschenkalender für Beamte der Militärverwaltung, Dröder was born in 1871, so turned the retirement age of 65 in 1936, just perfect to receive the fresh established Wehrmacht long service award.

If he would still be active in 1939, he would have received the 40 years oaks.

 

Best,

Daniel

[Daniel Krause]

P.S. forgot to mention.

I did my homework on that bar already a while ago, as I still owned his ribbon bar ?

[CRBeery]

Where is that bar now??? I would love to bring it into my collection!

[ixhs]

I know where the bar came from. It was a longer time on his page.

I did not buy it, because i wasn`t sure about the finish of the HSVM. 

My stomach says: Zahlmeister guy (paymaster)

I did a research on that bar  - for 95 % - i would say it was  "Mesecke"  - Art. Dep. Insp. Berlin - born 1874 (as i still can ID my handwritten notes...)

The problem is, that also Siekmann doesn`t show all "lower" decorations as many other sources.

 

 

[CRBeery]

Where was this for sale at? I bought it from a small US dealer. Did it have the ribbon bar with it?

Thanks for a second name. This has turned out to be very interesting.

[ixhs]

Hi,  i saw it at Zeige.

I don`t want to say, that the medal could be fake - i did not like the finish but may be i am wrong with it.

The ribbon bar was also sold at Zeige with some others.

[Paul C]

FAR 32

You did not know Rick, but he did have a great sense of humor. He spent months translating award rolls and relished the research. The results of his working, Daniel Krause and many others is used to make these identifications. Rick was, in some way a wizard. He had a fantastic memory and was very dedicated to what he did. I miss him very much as he was a close friend.

[Dave Danner]

On 06/10/2019 at 12:46, Daniel Krause said:

My late friend Rick would call us "wizards" ?

Nicolas,  in this case, if it it a Zahlmeister as well, I bet on Gustav Schöne from IR 93.

born 1874, between the wars civil Official, in 1934 Verwaltungsoberinspektor a.D.

Maybe he was recalled for service to rejoin the Wehrmacht...

In contrary to active Officers, these Officials did easily serve until their high 60ies.

 

Best,

Daniel

Gustav Schöne, born 29.6.1874 in Calbe (Saale), received the Friedrichkreuz on 5.5.1915 as a Zahlmeister in Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 66.

I have three other Zahlmeister-types with the Friedrichkreuz and the Prussian Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen and old enough for a Centenary, but I don't have anything further on them after World War I. Maybe Daniel has more information. 

• Henzgen, Karl, *8.8.1868 in Mehringen, Bernburg; Zahlm., von d. Train-Abt. Nr. 8, Sanitäts-Komp., Armee-Abteilung v. Strantz.
• Kolbe, Fritz, *10.12.1870 in Harzgerode; Zahlm., vom Inf.-Regt. Nr. 165, I./Landw.-Inf.-Regt. Nr. 36.
• Rößler, Max, *26.12.1872 in Bernburg; Zahlm., 4.Garde-Regt. zu Fuß.

[Stogieman]

A good topic, great help (which is what we are about) and great bar!

I miss Rick too, the world is a smaller place without him in it.

[Wild Card]

On 14/10/2019 at 07:43, Paul C said:

FAR 32

You did not know Rick, but he did have a great sense of humor. He spent months translating award rolls and relished the research. The results of his working, Daniel Krause and many others is used to make these identifications. Rick was, in some way a wizard. He had a fantastic memory and was very dedicated to what he did. I miss him very much as he was a close friend.

Thanks Paul. Many truly great memories.

[CRBeery]

This is going to be a good “Wizards and Gnomes” story.

[PREM]

Nice bar !

[ixhs]

I ve had a few possible candidates for that bar.

I think it is very hard to find that o n e guy for 100 % .

I.m.o. it is a late unnamed Godet bar and made in the late 1930s or early 1940s.

I think, in that time he was Stabszahlmeister or Oberstabszahlmeister. (Intendant) and he finished his service than.

[ixhs]

@ Dave/Daniel :

What about a combination with

-IC non combatant

-prussian war aid cross

-Anhalt Friedrichscross for combatants

-Hamburg Hanseatic cross

-Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer

- LSM XII

Do you have possible candidates ?

I would bet, some kind of MIlitärbeamter in a lower rank.

 

 

 

 

[Paul C]

Probably not, but show the bar.

[Dave Danner]

Anhalt generally followed Prussian Army practice for award of the so-called "non-combatant" ribbon, so an Iron Cross on the white-black ribbon (EK2w) and a Friedrichkreuz on the green-red ribbon (AK), rather than the green-white ribbon (AKw), is quite unusual. If anything, Anhalt would err in the other direction, awarding an AKw to someone who did not serve at the front whom Prussia awarded an EK2 rather than EK2w for whatever reason (typically, soldiers in Bezirkkommandos and stellvertretende Korpskommandos).

So, either an error on the bar or one of a very small group of exceptions. Possibly Kriegsmarine, since navy practice on awarding the EK differed from Army practice. The only EK2w/AK combination I know of is to a Marinebaumeister. He is not your guy since he had an Oldenburg Friedrich August Kreuz. A Hamburg Hanseatenkreuz to an Anhaltiner also hints at a navy connection, though not definitively so.

A possibility is Marine-Konstruktionssekretär Wilhelm Hundt, about whom I have no awards information (construction officials are not in the 1918 rank list). However, Hundt got his AK while with the Hafenbau Marinekorps, which would put him in the combat theater, so I would expect any EK2 to be on the black-white ribbon.