Not So Mad LUDWIG III

[filfoster]

Before Ludwig III, last Wittelsbach King of Bavaria ran away skedaddled after WW1 (He never formally abdicated, did he?) he swanned around in some pretty cool threads. His medal bar was wunderbar! I count 16 medals, so it's not a huge project, not like Kaiser Wilhelm's 21 gongs or Wilhelm I's 20, mostly older medals not found as repros.  I can guess at some of them but would like to recreate it and can't make them all out. Can anyone help me?

Conspicuous absences: Military Max Joseph order; Iron Cross 2nd.

I know the breast stars:  St. Hubertus, St. George and Military Merit Order , Grand Crosses

Bound to be a 1905 Jubilee medal and a long service medal too somewhere on there.

 

1. Jubilee medal for the Order of St. George

2. Military Merit Order 3rd with swords (and crown?)

3. Ludwig Order

4. ?

5. Luitpold 1909 70 year Jubilee medal

6.

7. Bavarian 1866 campaign cross?

8. A Hanseatic city cross? which one? This is probably wrong as the photo seems pre-war.

9. Prussian Centenary Medal

10.

11.

12.

13.

14.

15. Austrian F J Tapferkeit

16.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by filfoster

[VtwinVince]

'Ran away' has the hint of a moral judgement about it.

[filfoster]

Please. I hope you're kidding. It's intended as a humorous phrasing. Who knows what I'd have done? Probably the same thing. These folks are long gone and I am only trying to get some help with a project. I obviously have an interest and respect for these events and people or I wouldn't be bothering with it at all. 

If anyone wishes to thrash me over any of my posts, please PM me and we can set a date and time off the board. I hope readers will appreciate my admittedly wan attempts at humor here.

I would sincerely appreciate any help anyone can give to identify some of these medals. 

By the way, I understand that after being badly wounded in action when he was young, Ludwig III decided he'd had enough of military glory and I cannot criticize him for that.

Edited October 2, 2022 by filfoster

[filfoster]

....and making moral judgements about long past historical events and people is au courant in our culture just now. Even though I'm pretty old (be 70 next year) I'd like to get in on it while I still can.

Edited October 2, 2022 by filfoster

[ccj]

I don’t think Ludwig III was awarded the EK2 or EKI prior to WWI. I think he was alway “awarded the Max-Joseph during WWI as well. I may be wrong…

 

 

 

 

[filfoster]

Yes, ccj, I think you're right. No, I didn't mean to imply that he did get either one pre-war, because to my eye, these two awards are NOT apparent on pre-war photo with the medal bar at all and so I'd say he doesn't wear them. They are 'conspicuously absent'- not there at all - when he might have gotten at least a Max Joseph at any time: he's the King after all, and could have given it to himself or some toady could have put him in for one.

 

He fought AGAINST Prussia in 1866 and so would certainly not have gotten a Prussian valor award then and I don't see that he fought in 1870-71, so no EK of any degree for him from that war either. He's obviously wearing an EK 1 in your photo which seems to be a WW1 era picture. I can't tell from the black and white photo if there's an EK2 ribbon on the bar.

I am primarily interested in the pre-war medal bar but if anyone can decipher the above war time photo, that would also be appreciated. Another project.

..."Wikipedia", that august reference source, says he held the Max Joseph Order Grand Cross but again, I don't see the knight's cross, the lowest degree, on his pre war medal bar, which would have been the usual convention, even if he'd only received the higher degree. His brother Leopold had it in its proper order. In fact, Leopold's medal bar begins in almost the same sequence but had the Max Joseph at the #2 space.

Edited October 2, 2022 by filfoster

[P.F.]

Here are some high resolution photos which will give you an idea of how his medal bar has progressed, and maybe help fill in some of the blanks. 

[Dave Danner]

The King was Großmeister of the Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden. He did not receive a class of the order. This was not an oversight nor due to his not being a field commander, but a matter of either choice or custom. All of highest sovereign allies of Bavaria received the Großkreuz: Kaiser Wilhelm II, King Friedrich August III, King Wilhelm II, Tsar Ferdinand, Sultan Mehmet V, Kaiser Franz Josef I and Kaiser Karl. As Großmeister, he does appear to be wearing a version of the order in the later photos above.

 

Bavarian recipients of the Großkreuz were Kronprinz Rupprecht, Prinz Leopold, Felix Graf von Bothmer, Karl Ritter von Fasbender and Konrad Krafft von Dellmensingen. Bothmer and Fassbender received all three classes.

 

Ludwig III received the EK1 & EK2 in 1914 and the Pour le Mérite in 1916. He also received wartime awards from a few other states. Contra Wikipedia, he did not have the Württemberg Militärverdienstorden.

[filfoster]

Thanks, PF and Dave Danner.  Can anyone help fill in the vacant slots in the initial post? I can guess at a few but my eyes and references aren't up to a certainty for most of the vacancies.

[filfoster]

#4, out of precedence order (but he's king right?) Bavarian 1866 war cross.  Kinda 'in you face' for the Prussians, no?

#12 Hanoverian 1866 Langensalza battle medal?

[VtwinVince]

Calm down. I've seen plenty of German-bashing in my time, glad this is not an example thereof. Carry on.

[filfoster]

#13 A medal from Hesse or Saxe Coburg, looks like Carl Eduard profile....

#14 Austrian Siignum Laudis? No crown so could be another Austrian medal of 1866?

 

7 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:

Calm down. I've seen plenty of German-bashing in my time, glad this is not an example thereof. Carry on.

Gosh no, gentle fun. I am never seldom intentionally rude. 

Still plenty of blanks left to fill and correct my errant guesses.

Edited October 2, 2022 by filfoster

[Bayern]

King Ludwig III of Bayern was a true soldier , he was wounded in a leg while serving in the Royal Bavarian Army during 1866 war against the Prussians and allied with Austria Hungary . the bullet was not removed and the future King carried until his death a certain slight limp . you can see this in the films portraying the King and you can observe that he normally wear long trousers and not Breeches and riding boots . He was Much Loved in Bavaria and I wish to remember that Bavaria was a Federate Kingdom into the Empire with his own Army and War Minister, his own Railways and his own Post and Prussian postal stamps were not current in Bavaria . Army Officers Lists run separate the same was valid for Numbering the Army Regiments . to end, Ludwig III dont fled 

 

[GdC26]

https://www.deutsche-gesellschaft-fuer-ordenskunde.de/DGOWP/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/06112005_Bay_Landeskriminalamt_Muenchen.pdf

 

Perhaps this may help in hte identification of further decorations on the Ordensspange, as it shows several Ordensspangen of members of the Bavarian royal house.

 

And below are some further pics that look to have been taken at the same sitting (same Schärpe, same tunic, same array of breast stars etc.), and that if so, might help ID's the decorations.

 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by GdC26

[filfoster]

GdC26: The photos are very helpful but I still will need help with some of the later (righthand) gongs.

As to the URL link, I am very sorry this appears to be a notice of a theft. The medal bars appear to be Prince Leopold's. I can tell because I have copied the topmost one with help from the members of this forum.

See: 

 

 

[filfoster]

I hope these medals and orders were recovered.  Were there ribbon bars in this collection that presumably were not included in the stolen items, likely because they did not have medals and so seemed of less value? Are they currently on display?

[filfoster]

9 hours ago, Bayern said:

King Ludwig III of Bayern was a true soldier , he was wounded in a leg while serving in the Royal Bavarian Army during 1866 war against the Prussians and allied with Austria Hungary . the bullet was not removed and the future King carried until his death a certain slight limp . you can see this in the films portraying the King and you can observe that he normally wear long trousers and not Breeches and riding boots . He was Much Loved in Bavaria and I wish to remember that Bavaria was a Federate Kingdom into the Empire with his own Army and War Minister, his own Railways and his own Post and Prussian postal stamps were not current in Bavaria . Army Officers Lists run separate the same was valid for Numbering the Army Regiments . to end, Ludwig III dont fled 

 

Yes, he's an interesting historical person. That's why I want to replicate his medal and ribbon bars and perhaps his dress uniform.

[GdC26]

2 hours ago, filfoster said:

GdC26: The photos are very helpful but I still will need help with some of the later (righthand) gongs.

As to the URL link, I am very sorry this appears to be a notice of a theft. The medal bars appear to be Prince Leopold's. I can tell because I have copied the topmost one with help from the members of this forum.

See: 

 

 

I'm fully aware what it is Filfoster, that is why I said the link may be helpful in identifying medals on Ludwig III's bar - if you check the link (more) carefully, you will see that the medals on each of the stoelen bars are listed. Coupled with hte new photographs, I think the link gives you a handsome guide that should assist in further narrowing down the list.

 

Just a thought ...... ?

 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

Edited October 3, 2022 by GdC26

[filfoster]

29 minutes ago, GdC26 said:

I'm fully aware what it is Filfoster, that is why I said the link may be helpful in identifying medals on Ludwig III's bar - if you check the link (more) carefully, you will see that the medals on each of the stoelen bars are listed. Coupled with hte new photographs, I think the link gives you a handsome guide that should assist in further narrowing down the list.

 

Just a thought ...... ?

 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

Sandro: Thank you.

[filfoster]

#7.  Liutpold 40 year service cross?

[filfoster]

So, as of now (bold type for ones I feel pretty confident about):

Particularly puzzled by #4: Nothing in my order of precedence reference looks like it.

This must be something not mounted in the order of precedence. Women's and nursing orders are between the Ludwig Order and the Jubilee medals.

 

1. Jubilee medal for the Order of St. George

2. Military Merit Order 3rd with swords 

3. Ludwig Order

4. 

5. Luitpold 1909 70 year Jubilee medal

6. Luitpold 1905 Jubilee medal

7. Bavarian 1866 campaign cross?

8. Luitpold 40 year long service cross

9. Prussian Centenary Medal

10.

11.

12. Hanoverian 1866 Langensalza battle medal 

13. Victoria Golden/Platinum Jubilee Medal

14. Austrian Bravery medal?

15. Austrian F J Tapferkeit

16.

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by filfoster

[P.F.]

On the earlier medal bars there appears to be a Queen Victoria Golden Jubilee Medal.

[filfoster]

3 hours ago, P.F. said:

On the earlier medal bars there appears to be a Queen Victoria Golden Jubilee Medal.

In which position?

Edited October 3, 2022 by filfoster

[91-old-inf-reg]

#12

[filfoster]

3 hours ago, 91-old-inf-reg said:

#12

OK, let's fill that in. Agree it's there in the photo where he's in Prussian uniform (Mostly Prussian decorations, Hohenzollern collar, Black Eagle star, etc.. You can just see the small tilted crown on the bust.

Edited October 3, 2022 by filfoster