Bundesrepublik The new "Iron Cross"

[webr55]

Well said. And nothing more I could add.

[eitze]

It is a pitty, but here you can see what a soldier is worth to the German Government - not much

Right after these "fine pieces of craftmanship" came out, I wrote a mail to the Ministry of Defence and told them, that nearly every German Carnival order looks better than this crap !!!

As you can imagine I received a similarly impertinent answer from a press officer

From all sorts of suggestions the worst ( and cheapest) was choosen - unfortunately.

greetings

eitze

[Obergefreiter]

Well said. And nothing more I could add.

Only that, considering the number of these that will actually be awarded, they could have made them out of .900 gold, and it wouldn't have broke the bank. And never mind making one that actually looked good in the process.

[Guest Rick Research]

Could not agree more wholeheartedly with that! :cheers:

[ccj]

Could not agree more wholeheartedly with that!

Todays awards really don't seem to be taken seriously by governments and the people they commision to design them. I think the materials used in the manufacture are often times a huge problemas well.

[TacHel]

I have a question for our friends from Germany.

I was based in Germany and served with the multinational NATO AWACS Force during the Kosovo and Bosnian conflicts.

1/2 of my crew (including my CO) were in the Luftwaffe, great guys, it was a pleasure and an honour to serve with these true professionals!

Shortly after we were all "gonged" with the NATO medals, my German colleagues received their Einsatzmedaille.

They proudly showed them to us, then lowered their eyes, sighed and said how sad it was that the medals were going in a drawer, for they were not allowed to wear them. It was then I learned that German servicemen and women were not allowed to wear their decorations on their service uniforms, not even on parade!! Only the undress ribbons...

WTF?!?

I sincerely hope this sad and ludicrous regulation has been abolished by now? Please, somebody tell me it isn't so any more!

[webr55]

I am not sure what exactly the regulations say. But I have seen German soldiers in uniform with ribbon bar many times, although - I think - a maximum of eight decorations can be worn. Here is Generalinspekteur Wolfgang Schneiderhan with his bar (most of it are foreign decorations, among them the Legion of Merit and the Legion of Honor):

[webr55]

But pictures with full medal bars are rare... like RK winner Heinz Knoche als Bw Oberst:

[webr55]

Or Oakleaves Winner Heinrich Hoffmann, as Kapit?n zur See:

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Friends,

Nowadays it is nearly impossible, to wear the medals in original size. According our armed forcel regulations there are only a handful occasions to wear fullsize dec. Otherwise only a few people let their medals mount in the proper style. A German medal bar costs quite a lot of money.

Thats why You can nearly never see one. This ones at eBay and at dealers are more or less make-ups for display or for collectors.

Usually You can wear ribbon bars or miniature bars on the evening dress. BTW, there are no limitations how many dec. You can wear.

Best regards

Daniel

[Chris Liontas]

Not to beat a dead horse, but that medal is just flat out ugly. With the history of beautiful medals from the German States, I cant believe this is what they came up with.

[Chris Boonzaier]

But realistically.... most nations have low quality medals nowdays, not only the Germans...

[Elvis]

Hi Friends,

Nowadays it is nearly impossible, to wear the medals in original size. According our armed forcel regulations there are only a handful occasions to wear fullsize dec. Otherwise only a few people let their medals mount in the proper style. A German medal bar costs quite a lot of money.

Thats why You can nearly never see one. This ones at eBay and at dealers are more or less make-ups for display or for collectors.

Usually You can wear ribbon bars or miniature bars on the evening dress. BTW, there are no limitations how many dec. You can wear.

Best regards

Daniel

Hello Daniel,

I live in germany too. I am in touch with these special things.

Ribbon bars:

You are right "no limit about the quantity"

In the first row (in center) you have to wear speical things (40 mm wide like the Bundesverdienstkreuz - Order of Merit) - if you got it.

In the follwing row(s) you can wear other decorations.

All rows are fixed together.

I have slider systems for one up to 16 with or without Bundesverdienstkreuz. Also for sale.

Miniatures:

You are right "no limit about the quantity"

In the first row there is a maximum of 7 decorations to wear.

If you have more, than you have to open another row.

These to rows are NOT fixed together.

I have slider systems for one up to 7. Also for sale.

Hope the information was useful for you.

Thanks and

byebye

[TacHel]

Hi Friends,

Nowadays it is nearly impossible, to wear the medals in original size. According our armed forcel regulations there are only a handful occasions to wear fullsize dec. Otherwise only a few people let their medals mount in the proper style. A German medal bar costs quite a lot of money.

Thats why You can nearly never see one. This ones at eBay and at dealers are more or less make-ups for display or for collectors.

Usually You can wear ribbon bars or miniature bars on the evening dress. BTW, there are no limitations how many dec. You can wear.

Best regards

Daniel

I really don't understand this, it makes no sense. Bundeswehr full size awards are the same size as the full size awards of other nations. We don't wear our medals all the time, but on parade we do, during special events also. I've been on 2 parades with Luftwaffe units and also on a multinational one (NATO) where not a single German wore his medals. They were the ONLY ones not wearing them, they only wore their undress ribbons. On one particular parade where there were only Germans and us Canucks, we even removed our gongs and only wore our undress ribbons out of respect and camaradery for our German brothers at arms. (They really respected that and man, did they pay for the beer after the parade was dismissed!)

Court mounting of medals has been mandatory in the Canadian armed forces for years, but the service reimburses us for the cost of mounting them because THE SERVICE obliges us to have them mounted. I find it really hard to believe the full size medals aren't worn simply because of the cost of having them mounted...

My apologies to the author of the original thread, I understand this is a bit , but this is a subject I really have at heart. I still have many great friends in the Bundeswehr and simply cannot understand why these servicemen and women are treated like this!

Edited May 25, 2009 by TacHel

[eitze]

I really don't understand this, it makes no sense. Bundeswehr full size awards are the same size as the full size awards of other nations. We don't wear our medals all the time, but on parade we do, during special events also. I

I find it really hard to believe the full size medals aren't worn simply because of the cost of having them mounted...

It is not only the cost of mounting.

You will not see public parades here in Germany because of our past

In the few cases of a public vow for new conscripts there are hundreds of demonstrators against such spectacle.

So there is no opportunity and thus no reason to get your medals mounted!

I was in the Airforce from 1983-87 - a time without abroad missions for Germany. The only decorations you could earn were the Ehrenkreuze and -medal.

Here you can see my "Ehrenmedaille". I got it mounted for personal reasons and, as you can imagine, it was never worn!

greetings

eitze

[TacHel]

Odd... I saw MAGNIFICENT parades in Germany in 1999-2000, Bundeswehr parades.

Your past, IMHO, has NOTHING to do with the members of the Bundeswehr who served and continue to serve honorably all over the World. I do not mean to offend in any shape or form here, but the feeling I got when living in Deutschland was that these restrictions are self imposed. There seems to be this unhealthy self recriminatory feeling when the military is involved. I find this very sad for the members of the Bundeswehr... NOBODY outside of Germany expects this "mea culpa" (for lack of a better term) to go on and on and on.

And if the only thing is these idiotic protestors... Heck, we have them in EVERY single country. They protest, but would never serve a day for their country or go to Bosnia or Afghanistan. We just ignore them, the minorities are always quite vocal, but you'll usually find much more people looking at you with pride and respect.

Just my 2 cents worth...

[Alex K]

Germany and many germans have for many years had to live with the legacy of what a corrupt and genocidal regime perpertrated on millions of people from 1933-1945, and unfortunately it's an inescapable fact that anything which harks back to those days, such as the iron cross (Although we all know it's predates the NS regime by many years) will always be associated with that period and will therefore always be tainted

Interestlingly attached is a link to an artical on the BBC news which suggestsfinally the past may well be "In the past"

regards

Alex K

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8065504.stm

[PKeating]

It will never happen, as the reputation of the Iron Cross is shot after WW2.

Anyway nobody ask soldiers what they think of the quality of the awards, the parade, they salute, they accept,

Kevin in Deva.

Despite what some people like to imagine, the reputation of the Iron Cross is neither "tarnished" nor "shot" as a result of WW2. Were that the case, the Bundeswehr would not use it on their vehicles and aircraft. The vast majority of recipients of various classes of the Iron Cross 1939 received their awards for bona fide acts of valour. Were the Iron Cross 1939 considered tarnished, there'd have been no 1957 issue and it wouldn't have been proudly worn by many high-ranking Bundeswehr and NATO officers in the 1960s and 1970s. Nor would it have been seen on Spanish chests at Wellington Barracks in the 1980s.

As for the Knight's Cross, the dwindling band of holders are held in high esteem in Germany, Austria and other countries and not just by people some might write off as far right nutters. The Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross 1939 reflected what was left of the socialist mores in National Socialist philosophy, representing as it did a break with the old class-based system of the Pour-le-M?rite for commissioned ranks and the Goldenes Milit?r-Verdienstkreuz for other ranks, just as the Waffen-SS represented a new kind of meritocratic armed force. Of course, one has to try to see through the retrospective PC hyperbole and rhetoric to understand what all of this meant to ordinary fellows from working class backgrounds in the 1930s and early 1940s.

Rick is right in reminding us that the early Prussian Iron Cross was only awarded for wars against France in 1813 and 1870. Some opine that it is a decoration that can only be instituted if Germany is at war and, moreover, at war in defence of the homeland. This was untrue in 1914 and 1939. Germany awarded the 1914 and 1939 Iron Cross for combat that had little to do with national defence and was often extremely far away from the homeland.

That Germany is "not at war" has more to do with the reluctance of European leaders to use the W word than with the reality of the situation. The Western nations are most assuredly at war against various enemies on several fronts. Germany is part of that alliance and should stop pussyfooting around the issue and take a reality check. This medal is an abomination. Even some of the most culturally challenged Communist countries managed to come with better-looking bling than this. It wouldn't be so bad were the borders in enamel. But this evokes those late war Nazi awards and party badges, with their painted backgrounds. Awful!

They should just remanufacture an 1813-style Iron Cross, with the 1813 reverse and the plain obverse, with the Imperial era ribbons for military and civil awards and have done with it. That way, there'd be no valid justification for the usual suspects to start yapping about Nazi militarism. For that matter, they should also abolish that horrible flag with its migraine-inducing colours and readopt the old black, white and red colours, which were also flown during the Weimar period.

Terrible things were done by Germans and their allies in WW2 but we also did some pretty questionable things, such as the terror bombing of German cities, the nuking of Japan and the various atrocities perpetuated in the attempts to reinstate the imperialist status quo throughout Africa and Asia after the war. Germany should probably also reinstitute the military Pour-le-M?rite but for all ranks, as well as the Wound Badge and the Infantry Assault Badge and some of the other very classy awards of the WW1 and WW2 periods.

PK

Edited May 26, 2009 by PKeating

[Naxos]

... For that matter, they should also abolish that horrible flag with its migraine-inducing colours and readopt the old black, white and red colours, which were also flown during the Weimar period. ...

PK

PK, during Weimar the colors were: Schwarz - Rot - Gold

This goes back to the first German Democracy in 1848, originating in the colors of the L?tzow Freikorps of 1813 (Black uniform, Red piping and Gold buttons)

Black-Red-Gold (German National Flag from 1848 to 1866) precedes the colors of the Second Reich (1871) Black-White-Red.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Naxos

[PKeating]

Fascinating! I didn't know that. Thanks. I still don't much like the colour combination, though. However, checking the sources, I see that the black, white and red flag was also used, albeit in a limited way.

PK

Edited May 26, 2009 by PKeating

[Paul R]

They recently changed that. They now paint the outer part in red... (Not impressed!)

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2009/post-3030-1242661965.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2009/post-3030-1242661975.jpg

The history of the Iron Cross predates the horrors of WW2 and IMHO it should be reinstated. Really sad that some people cannot differentiate between valour in the field and politics...The French Legion of Honour and British VC were also bestowed during "somewhat questionable periods", yet these countries recognize the difference and have retained these awards.

Look at the medals closely... the red paint is so cheap that it is already chipping off of these UNAWARDED medals... How pathetic.

[TacHel]

Look at the medals closely... the red paint is so cheap that it is already chipping off of these UNAWARDED medals... How pathetic.

I know... It's enough to make ya weep... :(

[xxx]

PK, during Weimar the colors were: Schwarz - Rot - Gold

not allways http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskriegsflagge

[JimZ]

Is there any official reference to the iron cross? Why are we even making the link? Just because its German, shaped like a cross and with the exception of the three service variations, there is one that is awarded for bravery?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badge_of_Hono..._the_Bundeswehr

I thought that this was an Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr - not an Eisernes Kreutz. Butt ugly yes - but not an Iron Cross - and not even trying to be one.

[TacHel]

--LOGIC ALERT-- --LOGIC ALERT-- --LOGIC ALERT-- --LOGIC ALERT-- --LOGIC ALERT--

JimZ is right... But still, interesting debate.