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Is it a Turkish or German brooch?

A few months ago I bought this little brooch, and since then I have wondered if it would be for a Turkish officer or a German officer.

Any comment will be well received, thanks.

img231.jpg

img232.jpg

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Given the order of precedence, I would assume that it is a Turkish bar.

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It’s Turkish and very nice

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What a beautiful bar!

I am wondering: if that is the Lübeck award at no. 3, he should be in their award rolls. I would guess there are not too many Turkish officers who got it (though probably more than one). If we then had access to the Austrian rolls, he might be identified. 
 

Might be the first Turkish officer ID’d purely by his ribbon bar and award lists...

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Not sure about Lübeck. Why should it be inbetween turkish awards?

I am pretty sure, it is an Imtiaz Medal.

Here is a bar from my collection with the same ribbon:

 

051a.jpg

051b.jpg

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Ok, I admit, I am not too familiar with Turkish awards. Not Lübeck, but Sanayi Medal.  

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Posted (edited)

You mentioned the "Austrian Rolls".  Who here is actually familar with the Austrian rolls?  I have seen the Austro-Hungarian Naval Officer's rolls, the Austro-Hungarian Honved rolls, the Austro-Hungarian Almanac that lists recipients of the Maria Theresa, the Leopold, the Iron Crown, and the FJO, but I have never seen a comprehensive ranklist of [non Hungarian] Austrian officers that shows all of their awards (like the Austrian MVK for example.)  Hopefully these rolls are not like the Loch Ness Monster... everybody talks about its existence, but who's really ever seen it.  Simi.   

Edited by Simius Rex
spelling error

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Me. 🙂

 

there are all, or most, of the Austro- hungarian awards files of WW1 still in the war archive Vienna. 

Unfortunately,  for this case, I have had only access to the lists for Prussian officers.

 

best,

Daniel 

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Well... having access to the list of Prussian recipients of the MVK must come in very handy when trying to identify a German bar.  It's good to learn that the KuK award files are still intact in Vienna and weren't destroyed in the War like many of the German archives.  Are the recipients of other lesser Austrian awards also listed in the rolls, such as the various Merit Medals, Bravery Medals, and even Long Service awards?  Simi.  

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Bravery medals and merit crosses to non Austrians -yes.

 

Best, 

Daniel 

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But so, in theory, it might be possible to ID Nicolas7507's bar above with a Württemberg Friedrichsorden with X and the Austrian award to a Turkish officer. 
So I restate: This might be the first Turkish officer ID’d purely by his ribbon bar and award lists!

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So how do you go about obtaining the rolls of the Austrian-KVK awarded to Turks?  According to Daniel Krause in the post above, they are still in the War Archives in Vienna.  Do you actually have to travel to Vienna to examine these rolls?  Can you possibly access a digitalised version?  Simi.

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Hello!

It it would be a german brooch, the german Iron Cross would be at the first place.

I see:

Order of the Medjidie

Turkish war medal

Iftikhar Sanayi Medal

Prussian Iron Cross 2nd class

Austrian military merit cross

 

 

 

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Hi i cannot explain it in English and "Google Translator'" is not the best source.

I will write my opinion in German:

Meiner Meinung nach ist das die Feldspange eines Deutschen, der in osmanischen (türkischen)

Diensten stand. Ich hatte eine vergleichbare Spange mit einem Urkundenkonvolut vor ein paar Jahren.

Meiner Kenntnis nach wollte das Kaiserreich geeignetes Militärpersonal für das verbündete Osmanische

Reich anwerben. Man lockte mit einem orientalischen Erlebnis und einer "Beförderung". So wurde

z.B. aus einem deutschen Hauptmann ein osmanischer Major. Um die guten Beziehungen zum Sultan

zu wahren, trugen die Deutschen (ob es alle waren, kann ich nicht sagen, bei meinem Konvolut war es aber so)

die Feldspangen mit "osmanischen" Auszeichnungen zuerst und danach die anderen.

Es schönes Stück.  Die Spange mit dem Friedrichsorden könnten identifizierbar sein; die Quellen sind aber nicht

vollständig (also die, die ich habe)

MFG

 

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Posted (edited)

Hi!

I haven´t heard from that... The german orders were clear. 1st the own medals, then the others.

Otherwise it might be ordered by A.K.O. see below.

But, maybe you´re right. The german soldiers, who were in turkish services, "belonged" to the turkish empire, so they had to wear the medals in the ottoman way... isn´t it?

Like I said, I´m not sure...

 

 

Anordnung der Orden.jpg

Edited by The Prussian

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Thank you very much to all,
ixhs's point of view is interesting. opens up a wide range of possibilities

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14 hours ago, The Prussian said:

Hi!

I haven´t heard from that... The german orders were clear. 1st the own medals, then the others.

Otherwise it might be ordered by A.K.O. see below.

But, maybe you´re right. The german soldiers, who were in turkish services, "belonged" to the turkish empire, so they had to wear the medals in the ottoman way... isn´t it?

Like I said, I´m not sure...

 

 

Anordnung der Orden.jpg

Perhaps as a courtesy to the Sultan the German Officers were authorized to wear first their Turkish awards . after all they were commisioned into the Ottoman Army as  the prussian states ,  The German Civil Servants that were Ottoman Government Officials must wear the red Fez whe in service .I have a few Pics of my Paternal Grandfather who served as Civil Servant in Turkey during WW1 and in all he wears the Fez .

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4 hours ago, 03fahnen said:

Thank you very much to all,
ixhs's point of view is interesting. opens up a wide range of possibilities

I´m afraid of that... 😁

That would change my world view...

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Hi Preusse,

 

Could you please take the pics of the "Dr. Retzlaff Konvolut" into this thread.

You can find it in search function with "Retzlaff"

I have a few problems with the internet, today.

Thanks.

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