The Schrägstich Faker Chronicles

[ostprussenmann_new]

I am assuming he started back in the day with lose medals that were original; since those have dried up and the amount of money he makes on fakes, he can buy higher quality fakes, then fabricate the bars.  Really the whole collecting hobby has been really sad the last few years.

 

the whole thing is just disheartening 

[drspeck]

This one has was added recently on the evil-bay

[drspeck]

This EK1 was recently posted.

[Peter Cornwell]

I've been watching this one myself and the only reason that I've not put in a bid is the vendor. Frankly, I still cannot see much wrong with it. Another EK1 with identical marks & fittings sold this time last year for $250 and yet another sold only last November for £420. So can anybody positively confirm this is wrong for I am now genuinely confused? But even if it were kosher, I wouldn't give this guy a single pfennig. Thanks again Simius for keeping us all honest.   

[Simius Rex]

Hi Peter.  There are a few good copies of this cross circulating, unfortunately.  The cross currently offered by Mr. Schraegstich LUCKILY  has some strange features which are somewhat obvious if compared to a few authentic examples. 

 

Note the especially fat arms, the "too precise" and oversized block letters, and the wrong hinge, just to name a few things. 

 

Some orignals for comparison...

Edited January 8, 2022 by Simius Rex

[Peter Cornwell]

Simius Rex,

 

Very helpful & informative as ever. Thanks again.

[CollectorInTheUSA]

This is a very interesting thread, and thanks to everyone who has posted here.  

 

Question:  is it safe these days to buy WWI and WWII medals and artifacts at German and European auctions?  

 

I am thinking specifically of "Hermann Historica" and "Ratisbon's".  

 

Are they reliable?  Are their experts knowledgeable?  Do you ever see fakes showing up at their auctions?

[drspeck]

1 hour ago, CollectorInTheUSA said:

I am thinking specifically of "Hermann Historica" and "Ratisbon's".  

 

Are they reliable?  Are their experts knowledgeable?  Do you ever see fakes showing up at their auctions?

 

These are very good and honest questions. Generally speaking I think it's good to be sceptical - it should not have to be this way of course, but it's almost impossible not to be sceptical.

 

My expertise lies primairily in ribbon bars. I have seen major auction houses sell post-ww2 made ribbon bars as originals. I know Ratisbon's does not have much expertise on this subject, but they are open to feedback. Over the past years I have pointed them several times to irregularities and they always changed the description of that particular item.

 

Best.Peter.

Edited January 8, 2022 by drspeck

[Graf]

3 hours ago, CollectorInTheUSA said:

This is a very interesting thread, and thanks to everyone who has posted here.  

 

Question:  is it safe these days to buy WWI and WWII medals and artifacts at German and European auctions?  

 

I am thinking specifically of "Hermann Historica" and "Ratisbon's".  

 

Are they reliable?  Are their experts knowledgeable?  Do you ever see fakes showing up at their auctions?

 

From my experience all Auction Houses sell fakes knowingly or not.

The Fakers use any channels to dispose their productions I warn few Auction Houses regarding well known fakes. They ignore me all the time   I can not remember how many times i sent mails to eBay --the same outcome, ignorance Buyer Be Were rule apply . Especially now days with all the complex issues of communications and postage the things are even worse. Personally I stopped collecting till the things, hopefully, get better

[CollectorInTheUSA]

Thank you...   To be honest, this is primarily why I don't even bother collecting anything German from WWI and WWII.  The items are just so expensive and so faked, that it doesn't make for fun and easy collecting.  It's just a shame...

[Herman]

4 hours ago, CollectorInTheUSA said:

Thank you...   To be honest, this is primarily why I don't even bother collecting anything German from WWI and WWII.  The items are just so expensive and so faked, that it doesn't make for fun and easy collecting.  It's just a shame...

 

Yes, same here. 

 

When I was a teenager I bought a few German WW2 medals. This was way before Internet. A few years ago I found them, took some pictures and asked around, also on this forum, if my purchases from the 70-ties were genuine. It turned out that 90% wasn't. This was quite sobering for me, so I sold them all and will never collect German militaria again. 

 

I am still no expert on them and if I look at the pictures in this topic,  I think: Oh that looks nice, immediately know ing that it's a fake i'm looking at.

 

Thanks for the learning experience. Don't disclose all the details. The fakers are looking also and learning from the comments.

 

Cheers

Herman 

 

[VtwinVince]

Unfortunately all these auction houses, deliberately or otherwise, are purveyors of fakes, all of them. I have dealt with many in Germany, England and elsewhere and have been the victim of junk on some occasions. Right now I am trying to get DNW to pull a Prussian Gunner Badge from its latest auction, as it is a fake. I also have pretty much given up on collecting Imperial material, as the fakers, as evidenced by this thread, are zooming in on this area more and more, and the level of paranoia necessary to collect is ruining the fun.

[Graf]

It looks like the general feeling is very gloom.

Well, the fakers are active in all aspects of life.

I started a thread on the Bulgarian Section regarding fake Orders and Decorations.

At least helps the members to avoid making mistake with their  impulsive decisions

Yes the Fakers also read those comments. They also read all the books regarding how to detect fakes and they correct their production accordingly.

The German items, in my opinion are the most faked, simply because the demand is high and some items can fetch  very high prices Not only Auctions are to be shamed also many Sellers as well. I have noticed over the years that very high end items,  in nearly mint condition, appear at the same time on the sites of some Sellers around the world. This could not be accident. Someone supply them to the Sellers.

Again Buyer Be Were rule apply.

The good thing of those forums is that we learn from each others mistakes and experience and we minimise the damage as much as possible

 

Cheers

 

[v.Perlet]

Hello Simius Rex,

 

Interesting thread. You wouldn't have a front view of those EKI's you posted?

I'm only in possession of a single EK.1 stamped KO. So it's always difficult to draw comparisons with a different brand.

Taking into account that during WWI an EK.1 was still an order that held prestige, the quality/details of the Crown and its positioning towards the frame usually gives away the fake. Hinges and (no welding residue-rainbow-colors) certainly help too, to recognize a fake. 

As someone already indicated; serious collectors need to invest in literature/books, as for any collectable item.

I don't really blame the seller - for the ignorance of collectors. As in any antique/collectors business he is taking advantage of the naivety or non-professionalism of a buyer. 

 

However I would like to recommend, as some posters already did, post an original item next to the suspected fake and as such one can help an inexperienced buyer/collector.  Most buyers might be new to the topic, unlike many of you gents.

Regards

v.Perlet

[Simius Rex]

3 hours ago, v.Perlet said:

Hello Simius Rex, Interesting thread. You wouldn't have a front view of those EKI's you posted?

 

Here are the requested pics of the 2 crosses.

 

Regarding fakes and auction houses... It is the responsibility of the buyer to KNOW what he is bidding on.  If a bidder does not have the knowledge, he has no business bidding.    

 

DO YOUR RESEARCH!  Study photographs of originals and learn from experienced collectors by reading online forums.  If you get stuck buying a fake, it is your own fault for not performing the neccessary due-diligence!! 

 

An auctioneer's fiduciary duty is to the seller... not the buyer.  It has been that way for centuries.  Keep that in mind when bidding!!

[Graf]

That what i stated Buyer Be WERE rule apply.

All of us learned by our mistakes All we went to a stage of buying fakes and we thought we have the "real' thing till either hold the real items or someone more experienced identify our mistake.

The collecting market is a mine field for non experienced and sometime for experienced collectors (which can happen in the chase of rare items)

 

 

Cheers

[CollectorInTheUSA]

10 minutes ago, Simius Rex said:

Regarding fakes and auction houses... It is the responsibility of the buyer to KNOW what he is bidding on.  If a bidder does not have the knowledge, he has no business bidding.    

 

DO YOUR RESEARCH!  Study photographs of originals and learn from experienced collectors by reading online forums.  If you get stuck buying a fake, it is your own fault for not performing the neccessary due-diligence!! 

 

An auctioneer's fiduciary duty is to the seller... not the buyer.  It has been that way for centuries.  Keep that in mind when bidding!!

 

 

I disagree, it's not the buyer's "fault for not performing the necessary due-diligence"...   That's just "victim shaming" and deflecting responsibility for fraud from the perpetrator, to the victim.  

 

Would you say to the victims of Bernie Madoff's Ponzi Scheme, "get out of here, you should have studied harder, it was your responsibility to know that the investment products you were buying were not fraudulent, and it was your fault for not doing due diligence"?    I think not, and every court in the land would disagree with you and any statement like that.

 

Also, one of the auctioneers duties is also not to knowingly sell fakes.   An auctioneer who knowingly sells fakes will have their license revoked, and will find themselves sitting in jail until their hair turns white and their teeth fall out.  

 

The only reason auction houses don't get sued more often is that they settle issues quietly and refund money when customers make a fuss about a faked item.  When they don't refund they get sued and it makes for terrible publicity that they don't need and don't want.

 

Finally, the auctioneers duty is also to the buyer.  You can clearly see that when you read the auctioneers terms and conditions:

 

Hermann Historica "guarantees the accuracy of the information provided in terms of the object’s origin, age, epoch, manufacturer and materials. If, within three years from the day of the sale, this information proves to be materially incorrect, the buyer may rescind the transaction step by step, provided that the object is unaltered and still in the condition at the time of purchase. "

 

Ratisbon's says that "All items are guaranteed to be original manufacture before May 1945, unless otherwise stated. All customers both inland Germany and worldwide have 14 days to return the item or items for a full refund, if the item does not reach the expectation of the customer."

 

 

[bolewts58]

1 hour ago, CollectorInTheUSA said:

 

 

I disagree, it's not the buyer's "fault for not performing the necessary due-diligence"...   That's just "victim shaming" and deflecting responsibility for fraud from the perpetrator, to the victim.  

 

I'm on the side of Simius Rex on this. DO YOUR RESEARCH. There are many lazy collectors out there who can't be bothered doing the work to learn about originals and how to tell them from fakes. They rely on the voracity of dealers, auction houses and a belief in COAs. Forums are filled with the "Is it real" nobs who want someone else to hold their hand and tell them rather than search the forum databases for answers on their own.

Since I started collecting as a young boy, I made a point of reading and learning everything I could about my areas of interest. I read what books were available, consulted archives, and knowledgeable collectors and experts; all before the Internet. Today, at the push of a button, there's access to excellent databases on forums and hundreds of knowledgeable collectors and experts, not to mention all the military shows and the wide selection of detailed reference books available.

This hobby is not for the faint of heart. Unless you have confidence in what you are buying and the knowledge to back it up, you shouldn't be collecting. You need to become your own expert.

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by bolewts58

[v.Perlet]

2 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

 

Here are the requested pics of the 2 crosses.

 

Thanks a lot for your time. Just as I thought in regards to my KO brand,  usually the details of the crown and its positioning towards the frame is already enough to identify a fake.

Regards

v.Perlet

 

2 hours ago, CollectorInTheUSA said:

I disagree, it's not the buyer's "fault for not performing the necessary due-diligence"...   That's just "victim shaming" and deflecting responsibility for fraud from the perpetrator, to the victim.  

 

Hermann Historica "guarantees the accuracy of the information provided in terms of the object’s origin, age, epoch, manufacturer and materials. If, within three years from the day of the sale, this information proves to be materially incorrect, the buyer may rescind the transaction step by step, provided that the object is unaltered and still in the condition at the time of purchase. "

 

Ratisbon's says that "All items are guaranteed to be original manufacture before May 1945, unless otherwise stated. All customers both inland Germany and worldwide have 14 days to return the item or items for a full refund, if the item does not reach the expectation of the customer."

As for my person, I would never buy from an antique dealer who beholds to the guarantee promise as illustrated by Ratisbon.

Unless there is a Jonssøn Quisling working for an auction-house, you will hardly find one stating that he/she "knowingly cheated".  

And think about it; anything that someone states needs to be counter-checked, not just antiques. Or would you give a politician your money (vote) simply due to his statements?

 

Regards

v.Perlet

2 hours ago, CollectorInTheUSA said:

 

 

 

[CollectorInTheUSA]

Again, I don't disagree that collectors everywhere should do their homework, buy books, read, compare, that's a given.  Those collectors who don't do any of that, will probably regret it at some point or another.  

 

What I am disagreeing with, is "victim shaming" which is blaming the victims, for the actions of the criminals.  I see that a lot on collector forums, with people saying "it's your fault if you buy a fake".  That's a load of rubbish.

 

Criminals will always find a new way to defraud, and most regular people will never be able to learn enough to avoid the criminals every time.  This thread makes that point itself, when it says that the criminals are learning, and making better fakes all the time.

 

So that's why we have police, license-granting authorities (that give auctioneers a license to operate), antique dealer associations, and finally, and very importantly, forums and threads like this one, which seek to educate collectors about frauds.  

 

Trust me, if you buy a fake from an auctioneer and they refuse to make it right, and you threaten them that you will file a police report about it, and complain to the organization that gave the auctioneer the license to operate, and come on this forum and complain some more, and give the auctioneer a negative review on Google, then trust me, that auctioneer will do everything they can to make you happy.  Its just not worth it to the auctioneer to go through Dante's Inferno for 1000 euro, or 2000 euro, or even 5000 euro.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by CollectorInTheUSA

[BlackcowboyBS]

50 minutes ago, CollectorInTheUSA said:

Again, I don't disagree that collectors everywhere should do their homework, buy books, read, compare, that's a given.  Those collectors who don't do any of that, will probably regret it at some point or another.  

 

What I am disagreeing with, is "victim shaming" which is blaming the victims, for the actions of the criminals.  I see that a lot on collector forums, with people saying "it's your fault if you buy a fake".  That's a load of rubbish.

 

Criminals will always find a new way to defraud, and most regular people will never be able to learn enough to avoid the criminals every time.  This thread makes that point itself, when it says that the criminals are learning, and making better fakes all the time.

 

So that's why we have police, license-granting authorities (that give auctioneers a license to operate), antique dealer associations, and finally, and very importantly, forums and threads like this one, which seek to educate collectors about frauds.  

 

Trust me, if you buy a fake from an auctioneer and they refuse to make it right, and you threaten them that you will file a police report about it, and complain to the organization that gave the auctioneer the license to operate, and come on this forum and complain some more, and give the auctioneer a negative review on Google, then trust me, that auctioneer will do everything they can to make you happy.  Its just not worth it to the auctioneer to go through Dante's Inferno for 1000 euro, or 2000 euro, or even 5000 euro.

 

 

I totally agree with you! 100 % on all you have written.

[v.Perlet]

4 hours ago, CollectorInTheUSA said:

What I am disagreeing with, is "victim shaming" which is blaming the victims, for the actions of the criminals.  I see that a lot on collector forums, with people saying "it's your fault if you buy a fake".  That's a load of rubbish.

I fully understand as to why you are kind of aggravated. Off course no one is looking forward to finding out that he/she bought a fake. If it has happened, well you already pointed out correctly as to what to do.

 

However I also fully understand as to why in the USA, the OEM e.g. Porsche was instructed to add a special notice towards buyers, informing them that they need to be aware of the cars tremendous acceleration. Due to accidents happening as to where the justification of the driver was; it wasn't my fault-I had no idea about the cars power, I hit the accelerator pedal and the car shot out from the dealerships compound into the main-road crashing into other cars.

 

Don't get me wrong please, but I personally wouldn't want to live in a world that is spiked with laws in order to protect the buyer/customer from using his common sense in all walks of life towards liability. No personal offense meant!!

 

Regards

v.Perlet

4 hours ago, CollectorInTheUSA said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BlackcowboyBS]

16 minutes ago, v.Perlet said:

I fully understand as to why you are kind of aggravated. Off course no one is looking forward to finding out that he/she bought a fake. If it has happened, well you already pointed out correctly as to what to do.

 

However I also fully understand as to why in the USA, the OEM e.g. Porsche was instructed to add a special notice towards buyers, informing them that they need to be aware of the cars tremendous acceleration. Due to accidents happening as to where the justification of the driver was; it wasn't my fault-I had no idea about the cars power, I hit the accelerator pedal and the car shot out from the dealerships compound into the main-road crashing into other cars.

 

Don't get me wrong please, but I personally wouldn't want to live in a world that is spiked with laws in order to protect the buyer/customer from using his common sense in all walks of life towards liability. No personal offense meant!!

 

Regards

v.Perlet

 

I think, that we are starting to compare apples with pears now. If somebody offers a rare order on ebay and claims that he has found it in the in a hidden drawer of the desk of his grandpa that died recently and he wants to sell it. A collector is reading it and thinks to himself: man this guy really doesn't know what treasure he has and buys it because he is greedy, then I would go along with the people saying: Sorry guy your own fault, but if you can't tell a cast from a coinage then this is your own stupidity. 

But if a collector is buying from an auction house or an antique shop he can at least put some faith in the experience of this seller. The seller has a trade licence and is bound to sell stuff with some characteristics like originalitiy, right material, properly working, etc ... So some kind of trust should be there and therefor the seller must do all he can to fullfill this to the best of his knowledge. As we all know, that this world is not perfect and nobody else isn't either, a serious collector should do all the best he can do minimize chances of being folded by sellers, as this can allways happen. 

But the blame lies fully on the seller, if the buyer can proof him wrong in front of a court. In German we have the wonderfull word: Sorgfaltspflicht which could be translated into due diligance. If a seller is transgressing his due diligance then he can be put in front of a court. 

 

[v.Perlet]

43 minutes ago, BlackcowboyBS said:

I think, that we are starting to compare apples with pears now. If somebody offers a rare order on ebay and claims that he has found it in the in a hidden drawer of the desk of his grandpa that died recently and he wants to sell it. A collector is reading it and thinks to himself: man this guy really doesn't know what treasure he has and buys it because he is greedy, then I would go along with the people saying: Sorry guy your own fault, but if you can't tell a cast from a coinage then this is your own stupidity. 

But if a collector is buying from an auction house or an antique shop he can at least put some faith in the experience of this seller. The seller has a trade licence and is bound to sell stuff with some characteristics like originalitiy, right material, properly working, etc ... So some kind of trust should be there and therefor the seller must do all he can to fullfill this to the best of his knowledge. As we all know, that this world is not perfect and nobody else isn't either, a serious collector should do all the best he can do minimize chances of being folded by sellers, as this can allways happen. 

But the blame lies fully on the seller, if the buyer can proof him wrong in front of a court. In German we have the wonderfull word: Sorgfaltspflicht which could be translated into due diligance. If a seller is transgressing his due diligance then he can be put in front of a court. 

 

Sorry but this issue is starting to turn in circles.

 

Sorgfaltspflicht in Germany does not apply towards Garantiebestimmungen (guarantee regulations) It's an entirely different issue. E.g. The employer has a Sorgfaltsplicht toward his employees - e.g. protect non-smokers, or the applicant has a Sorgfaltspflicht towards his resume (this is about correct dates and not about faking ones CV qualifications or line of jobs). which is termed Betrug or Fraud.

 

Anyhow, the Terms of business are stated on any company site (by law) also including the issue of guarantees.

Nobody doubts that someone will put a greater trust into a person or institute that "guarantees" than one that doesn't.  If you can proof that e.g. an auction house gave deliberate false information - you can sue them and they will be punished by law. However in reality the auction house will forward that one of its employees did not perform his task diligently - they are very very sorry and will make up for it.

 

So again if you have been cheated then there are ways to get your money back.

 

But isn't the issue more about not getting a fake in the first place?

 

Regards

v.Perlet 

 

 

[Simius Rex]

This thread has veered off-course and has rapidly degenerated into a pissing-up-the-rope contest. 

 

My goal in starting this thread was to document a new wave of sophisticated fakes hitting the collector's market which includes detailed discussions about their characteristics compared to originals.  It was to serve not only as a reference-resource for collectors, but also as a learning tool for those who want to fine-tune their ability to spot these high-quality fakes. 

 

@CollectorInTheUSA :  I am disappointed and a bit annoyed that you have turned this otherwise educational thread into a discussion about which auction houses it's "safe" to buy from.  It has nothing to do with the focus of this thread and is totally OFF-TOPIC.  Your question resulted in a round-about discussion involving ethical and legal obligations crossing into a baffling Bernie Madoff analogy with various other pontifications and irrelevancies thrown-in.

 

PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD IF YOU WANT TO GET RECOMMENDATIONS OF TRUSTWORTHY AUCTIONS HOUSES FROM THE MEMBERS. Simply state, "I don't want to become informed about the items on which I want to bid, so which middle-man-peddler can I trust to do my thinking for me without getting screwed?" 

 

I AM KINDLY REQUESTING THE MEMBERS TO PLEASE GET THIS THREAD BACK ON-TRACK, and mods... please consider moving these off-topic posts to a separate, new thread in the Lounge Sub-Forum.  Thank you.

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Simius Rex