Miniature bar identification

[Nihil Sine Deo]

Hello! 

 

I would like to know more information about this beautiful 16 orders and medals miniature bar. I know the most of the orders and medals excepting the 7th one starting from left. I’m also trying to find out who owned the bar, and I’m thinking that he could be a German Diplomat. I’m thinking that there aren’t so many persons that recieved The Order of the Sacred Treasure (Japan) and the Spanish order of Isabella the Catholic.

I hope someone can help me, I would appreciate, any information is useful.

I have noticed that where the Austrian orders starts the the chain was modified, probably he recieved them later, in his career.

 

Thank you very much.

[JohanH]

Great looking mini chain!

 

Miniature number 7 looks a bit Asian if you ask me.

 

I can't help you to ID the owner, but a set like that must be unique and ID:able. 

[Nihil Sine Deo]

8 minutes ago, JohanH said:

Great looking mini chain!

 

Miniature number 7 looks a bit Asian if you ask me.

 

I can't help you to ID the owner, but a set like that must be unique and ID:able. 

Thank you!

 

I also think that it could be something asian, I’ve looked over the Japanese medals and orders but I couldn’t find something to look alike.

 

I’m really hoping to find out the bearer, it would be an amazing thing for me.

 

[Komtur]

The owner was a Saxon reserve officer and civil servant. The Brunswick Order of Henry the Lion seems to be an officer grade. This is a scarce decoration and there exists a printed list of the awards. To look at this list for Saxons could lead to the person, you are looking for.

 

Regards, Komtur.

[Nihil Sine Deo]

Thank you,

22 minutes ago, Komtur said:

The owner was a Saxon reserve officer and civil servant. The Brunswick Order of Henry the Lion seems to be an officer grade. This is a scarce decoration and there exists a printed list of the awards. To look at this list for Saxons could lead to the person, you are looking for.

 

Regards, Komtur.

Thank you very much, I will try to look after that list.

 

Best regards,

Iulian

Edited September 29, 2021 by Nihil Sine Deo

[Wild Card]

Yes. The Brunswick award (#6) is an officer's cross. Because this grade of the order was not founded until 1908, it is a relatively rare award.

 

Now, with regard to #7... Bukhara?

[GdC26]

Japan, Order of the Sacred Treasure, I think. Not sure what class.

 

https://www.emedals.com/japan-an-order-of-the-sacred-treasure-5th-class

 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

[Nihil Sine Deo]

6 hours ago, Wild Card said:

Yes. The Brunswick award (#6) is an officer's cross. Because this grade of the order was not founded until 1908, it is a relatively rare award.

 

Now, with regard to #7... Bukhara?

Hello! Thank you for your information, step by step we will resolve the miniature puzzle.

 

 

#7 might be linked to Bukhara, but I couldn’t find anything to look alike.

 

Best regards.

4 hours ago, GdC26 said:

Japan, Order of the Sacred Treasure, I think. Not sure what class.

 

https://www.emedals.com/japan-an-order-of-the-sacred-treasure-5th-class

 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

Hello, thank you for your information, that is the First (the last on the bar) order of the miniature bar. It is indeed the Order of the Sacred Treasure Japan. 
 

I’m trying to figure out what medal or order is #7, because maybe it will take me to the owner of the bar. I’m trying to find out the personality that has been awarded with such orders.

 

Best regards.

[David M]

I think Komthur gave you a solid lead earlier as to where to find the owner of this miniaturechain. Dont you?

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello,

 

Congratulations regarding this fantastic miniature grouping.  The chain and the gold orders appear to be made of 750 gold.  I concur with Wild Card (who is an expert regarding these matters) that the 7th award  from the left is probably from the Emirate of Bukhara. The Bukhari-yi Sharif Medal for Military Service is very similar in shape and style: Goldberg Auctions 

 

Sometimes seldom encountered awards were made by jewelers from pattern books and a bit of "artistic license" was utilized.  Therefore, we may never be 100% certain what this award miniature was made to represent.

 

Best regards,  

[VtwinVince]

Wow, most interesting Kettchen I've seen in ages.

[Nihil Sine Deo]

1 hour ago, David M said:

I think Komthur gave you a solid lead earlier as to where to find the owner of this miniaturechain. Dont you?

Hello! I’ve tried to find the people that had been decorated with the Order Henry the Lion but I couldn’t find much informations… I have found that only five people recieved the Officer grade but I couldn’t find the other awards that they recieved. 

Best regards

 

[Nihil Sine Deo]

1 hour ago, Triadoro said:

Very nice photos of a Saxon's frock-chain you've presented here.  I assume it's yours.

 

You joined the forum 3 days ago and based on your remarks, I'm not sure you fully comprehend the extensive amount of research even an experienced phaleristician... armed with specialized reference materials and knowledge on how to use them... would have to undertake in order to I-D a potential owner.  It's not like opening a telephone directory and looking up a name... especially considering the large number of civilian awards on this chain.

 

Have you done any preliminary research yourself?  That is to say... have you obtained or accessed any volumes of the Staatshandbuch für das Königreich Sachsen in an effort to determine if anything close to this award combination is listed?

 

https://books.google.com/books/about/Staatshandbuch_für_das_Konigreich_Sachs.html?id=Q_ocAQAAMAAJ

 

Member Komtur gave you an important lead regarding the Henry the Lion officer's cross.  No doubt you will be delving into some volumes of the Hof- und Staatshandbuch des Herzogtums Braunschweig in order to track down the award rolls for this order and to compare your findings with the information you obtained from the Saxon handbook.  Only 226 officer's crosses were awarded, so a Saxon recipient should be easy to find.  Here is what the 1915 edition looks like:

 

https://www.huesken.com/shop/de/braunschweig/hof-staatshandbuch-des-herzogtums-braunschweig-1915-51831.html

 

AND/OR... you could obtain a very specialized publication about Brunswick's awards and award-recipients contained in 3 volumes written by a member of this forum:

 

https://www.schwarzbuch-verlag.de/unser-programm/blaue-reihe/braunschweiger-orden-und-ehrenzeichen/

 

And of course, you shouldn't forget about researching and confirming the owner's receipt of 3 Austrian awards for which you will probably want to access the Hof- und Staatshandbuch der Österreichisch-Ungarischen Monarchie  

 

https://alex.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/alex?aid=shb&datum

 

These leads should get you off to a good start in your research efforts.  But at the very least, it should enlighten you about the extensive involvement of time and research-expertise required to answer your question.  Regards.  

Hello,

 

First of all I want to thank you very much for the sources, I really couldn’t find them myself because I don’t speak and understand very well German. I’ve tried to find the persons that were awarded with the Order of Henry the Lion but I couldn’t find too much because all the informations are in German and it’s very hard for me to search them. From my researches only 5 people recieved the order in Officer class, and from those I have found out that one or two also recieved the Order of the Sacred Treasure and those people are Ernst von Uechtritz and Steinkirch and Otto Reinke but I couldn’t find all the rest of the awards that they received. That is all I could find for now, and I’m searching since two or three days ago. If the informations were in English I think I could have found more.

 

It is belonging to me now, thank you, it is indeed a nice frock chain, possible made of gold, but that doesn’t matter that much.

 

Best regards,

Iulian.

1 hour ago, VtwinVince said:

Wow, most interesting Kettchen I've seen in ages.

Thank you very much.

[Nihil Sine Deo]

5 hours ago, Schießplatzmeister said:

Hello,

 

Congratulations regarding this fantastic miniature grouping.  The chain and the gold orders appear to be made of 750 gold.  I concur with Wild Card (who is an expert regarding these matters) that the 7th award  from the left is probably from the Emirate of Bukhara. The Bukhari-yi Sharif Medal for Military Service is very similar in shape and style: Goldberg Auctions 

 

Sometimes seldom encountered awards were made by jewelers from pattern books and a bit of "artistic license" was utilized.  Therefore, we may never be 100% certain what this award miniature was made to represent.

 

Best regards,  

Hello,

 

Thank you very much. I suppose it is gold but I don’t want to go and check them because I am afraid that they need to be scratched to see if they are made of gold. 
 

About the seventh award, is it indeed very similarly but if it is that award then it must that the person that recieved it has made military service in that country? 
 

 

Best regards,

Iulian.

[Nihil Sine Deo]

1 hour ago, Triadoro said:

 

Hello, and you're welcome.  

 

Also, I would not focus too much on that teardrop shaped award featuring a Lutheran rose with flames shooting out of its ass, and here's the reason why:  it doesn't make sense in position #10.

 

Side note:  frock-chains, like frock-bars, are read from right to left, not left to right.  So the teardrop shaped medal is not in position #7, but rather in position #10.  FYI.

 

All of the awards on your chain are attached in the proper order of precedence.  This is why the teardrop shaped award stands out like a sore thumb... it doesn't belong there unless it's an award from a German state, which it is not.

 

Side note: most Saxons would not put the Prussian Iron Cross in first place, but after the war, some (not most) Saxons actually preferred the Iron Cross in first place.  It must have made them look "brave."

 

The order of precedence that your chain follows is correct:  Saxon wartime awards, Saxon peacetime awards, German states' wartime awards, German states' peacetime awards, foreign wartime awards, foreign peacetime awards. 

 

The teardrop award is undoubtedly foreign and, therefore, would have been mounted in a position on the chain accordingly.  I believe there a strong chance that another mini (an award from a German state) was removed from the chain and replaced with this odd looking bauble.  Regards.

 

 

p.s. If you like my posts, you should select "LIKE" on the heart-shaped icon.

 

Hello, Thank you very much for these important informations, I think it would take me around one week to gather all that informations. Right now I have found an Staatshandbuch für das Königreich Sachsen (the 1913 edition) and I’ve figured out the abbreviations for the orders, now I have to find out the person with the most orders awarded. Unfortunately I couldn’t find the 1914 or 1915 edition. 
From all the orders I’ve managed to find out BayrMich, BrL, Jap.H Sch, OstrEKr, OstrFJ, PrRAGk, PrKr, PrEK, KSächsV, KSächsA, KSächsLwD and SpanI. If I am wrong I would be pleased to correct me.

I have also noticed that the pear shaped award is between two German Orders and at first I’ve thought that it could be an German award but now I’m starting to think that it could be possible to have been replaced but I don’t see any traces of bent metal. It seems to have patina.
 

p.s. I would love to like these posts but I just don’t figure out how. Maybe it is because I’m typing from the phone. And thank you very much for accepting me on this wonderful group.

 

Best regards, 

Iulian.

[GdC26]

On 30/09/2021 at 23:31, Triadoro said:

 

Hello, and you're welcome.  

 

Also, I would not focus too much on that teardrop shaped award featuring a Lutheran rose with flames shooting out of its ass, and here's the reason why:  it doesn't make sense in position #10.

 

Side note:  frock-chains, like frock-bars, are read from right to left, not left to right.  So the teardrop shaped medal is not in position #7, but rather in position #10.  FYI.

 

All of the awards on your chain are attached in the proper order of precedence.  This is why the teardrop shaped award stands out like a sore thumb... it doesn't belong there unless it's an award from a German state, which it is not.

 

Side note: most Saxons would not put the Prussian Iron Cross in first place, but after the war, some (not most) Saxons actually preferred the Iron Cross in first place.  It must have made them look "brave."

 

The order of precedence that your chain follows is correct:  Saxon wartime awards, Saxon peacetime awards, German states' wartime awards, German states' peacetime awards, foreign wartime awards, foreign peacetime awards. 

 

The teardrop award is undoubtedly foreign and, therefore, would have been mounted in a position on the chain accordingly.  I believe there a strong chance that another mini (an award from a German state) was removed from the chain and replaced with this odd looking bauble.  Regards.

 

 

p.s. If you like my posts, you should select "LIKE" on the heart-shaped icon.

 

I think this is very probably true. That said, the flower depicted could be the Lippische Rose - but I don't immediately recall any awards from Lippe that are shaped like this. Nevertheless, perhaps a placeholder for a lost Lippe award?

Kind regards, 

Sandro

[Nihil Sine Deo]

3 hours ago, GdC26 said:

I think this is very probably true. That said, the flower depicted could be the Lippische Rose - but I don't immediately recall any awards from Lippe that are shaped like this. Nevertheless, perhaps a placeholder for a lost Lippe award?

Kind regards, 

Sandro

Hello, comparing it with the Bukhara war service medal, the Lippische Rose looks much more alike. And I think it would also have more sense.

 

Best regards, 

Iulian

[BlackcowboyBS]

well I have written the books on Brunswick and the officers cross was awarded 220 times, so a bit more than just 5! 

I can check a name for you, if you get me on from the other decorations.

By the way congratulation to this great mini chain, I have never seen an officers cross on a chain like this before. 

[CRBeery]

I thought the Saxon cross in position #2 was only supposed to be worn if nothing else from Saxony had been awarded. I’ve never seen it mounted before knights crosses.

[Haku]

Saxon War Merit Cross It is the only Saxon war award so it comes first.

The other Saxons are not war awards.

[BlackcowboyBS]

I checked my lists and at first glance I found these two officers from Saxony, if he was a military man, you might go along with these names. If he was civilian I do need a name to check it. 

 

• Frhr v. Könneritz, Karl 

• Wagner, Erich

[Nihil Sine Deo]

4 hours ago, BlackcowboyBS said:

well I have written the books on Brunswick and the officers cross was awarded 220 times, so a bit more than just 5! 

I can check a name for you, if you get me on from the other decorations.

By the way congratulation to this great mini chain, I have never seen an officers cross on a chain like this before. 

Hello!

 

Congratulations for writing the books on Brunswick Order of Henry the Lion, it really is an honor for me to talk to a person that literally helps unraveling the history.

 

I have made a list with the awards but I'm not sure of the classes.

 

-Eisernes Kreuz 2.Klasse 1914.

 

 

Sachsen - Königreich:

 

-Kriegsverdienstkreuz Bronze 1915;

 

-Verdienstorden Ritterkreuz (KsachsV);

 

-Albrechtsorden Ritterkreuz (KsachsA);

 

-Landwehr-Dienstauszeichnung 2.Klasse (KsachsLwD 2).

 

 

Oldenburg - Großherzogtum:

 

-Friedrich August Kreuz 1914.

 

Preußen - Königreich:

 

-Königlicher Kronen-Orden Kreuz (PrKr);

 

-Roter Adler Orden Kreuz 4.Klasse (PrRA4).

 

Bayern - Königreich:

 

-Verdienstorden vom Heiligen Michael Kreuz 2.Klasse (BayrMich2).

 

 

-Possible Lippische Rose orden.

 

 

Braunschweig - Herzogtum:

 

-Orden Heinrich des Löwen Offizierkreuz (BrL2).

 

Österreich:

 

-Kriegskreuz für Zivilverdienste;

 

-Orden der Eisernen Krone (OstrEKr);

 

-Franz-Joseph-Orden (OstrFJ).

 

Spanien:

 

-Orden Isabella die Katholische (SpanI).

 

Japan:

 

-Orden des Heiligen Schatzes (JapSch).

 

 

I hope that it will help, that is the best I can do.

Thank you very much, I really apreciate the help, if we will ever find the bearer I promise that I will send you a 6 pack beer ?.

 

Best regards,

Iulian

 

 

[Haku]

Major von Koenneritz doesn't fit. see ranking from 1914

Major Erich Wagner had too little on his chest in 1914. see ranking from 1914

[BlackcowboyBS]

5 hours ago, Haku said:

Major von Koenneritz doesn't fit. see ranking from 1914

Major Erich Wagner had too little on his chest in 1914. see ranking from 1914

Okay, so we need to start again. What I can tell you is, that the minature looks like the big crosses from Siebrecht, so our man got his officers cross from Brunswick before may 1912. Well this argument is only true, if the miniatures also followed the change from tail down to tail up on the guelphic horse. 

 

If I found the time I will have another look into my lists from brunswick, to see if I can find more saxonians in it. 

[Nihil Sine Deo]

54 minutes ago, BlackcowboyBS said:

Okay, so we need to start again. What I can tell you is, that the minature looks like the big crosses from Siebrecht, so our man got his officers cross from Brunswick before may 1912. Well this argument is only true, if the miniatures also followed the change from tail down to tail up on the guelphic horse. 

 

If I found the time I will have another look into my lists from brunswick, to see if I can find more saxonians in it. 

Wow, what a formed eye! The horse tail is indeed towards down. Only someone specialised in miniatures could tell us if the miniature was indeed one on one with the award but I’m thinking that you are right.

 

About looking in your databases, if you could do that, I would appreciate a lot, there is no hurry, and once again, thank you very much for your time, I am honoured.

 

best regards, 

Iulian.