Another Double EK2 Bar

[Stogieman]

Second time this year we’ve seen two EK on a bar. It looks legit and as an enlisted bar I don’t think the white/black ribbon would have been for something else but I would appreciate any/all input on this. Thanks 

[Deruelle]

Hi Stogie

To be honest, it is the first time I see two EK on a same bar. For me it's not possible but it is my opinion. You were proud to wear an non combattant EK2 .And how it is possible that after he has made action and was rewarded ?  For me stay awary from this bar

 

Christophe

[VtwinVince]

I saw this one as well. A scarce combo, but possible. The bar's construction looks OK to me as well.

[dond]

How is this combo even possible? Did I miss a thread somewhere? Would not the 2d award be an EK1?

[Stogieman]

There is another thread discussing this possibility of both eks. Apparently there’s documented cases of an individual being awarded both. Will try and dig up the thread 

[Stogieman]

Couldn’t find the thread, what spurred it on was an immaculate Godet double EK bar.

[VtwinVince]

These do turn up from time to time, and the statutes allowed for wear of both.

[Mike Huxley]

I also saw this one and thought it had to be wrong. I would be interested to see the statutes that show this is possible.

The second EK on the bar looks very new or maybe over cleaned, just doesn't tie up for me though.

[Komtur]

1 hour ago, VtwinVince said:

These do turn up from time to time, and the statutes allowed for wear of both.

 

I doubt, that this was according to the regulations, but indeed this unusual and scarce combination is to be found sometimes as a result of an unintended failure of the awarding procedure:

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

Admiralstabsintendant Fritz Burmeister was awarded both versions of the EK2 and also the EK1. He can be seen wearing the ribbons of both EK2's in this photo.

[Stogieman]

Thanks for the insight and documentation, appreciate the input 

[Mike Huxley]

Great information and back up on this subject. It's certainly opened my eyes on what I thought was a make believe bar. 

3 hours ago, Komtur said:

 

I doubt, that this was according to the regulations, but indeed this unusual and scarce combination is to be found sometimes as a result of an unintended failure of the awarding procedure:

 

[CRBeery]

Not my photo but it is very interesting. Seems all of the dual EK2 bars are post war.

Edited September 29, 2023 by CRBeery

[ccj]

I learned something new. Very interesting for me sure….  

58 minutes ago, CRBeery said:

Not my photo but it is very interesting. Seems all of the dual EK2 bars are post war.

Would you please post the entire photo?  Please

[VtwinVince]

Great photo, what uniform is that guy wearing?

[Stogieman]

Final bid for the original bar shown was $597!

[Chris Boonzaier]

I had a couple of document groups where the guy was awarded the EK2 twice. in one case an officer was awarded it twice in 1914... he had changed commands and both commands awarded him the EK2... but it did not mean he could wear two. Another group was a guy who got the postwar EK2 awarded twice as the awarding authority changed and they overlooked the fact that it had been already awarded.

I think there is no official way to wear two. although, if someone had served in GSWA before the war he may have had the the black and white ribbon on the bar... and some collector just swapped out the medals?

 

 

[Dave Danner]

I have seen plenty of cases where someone was a awarded a cross on the "non-combatant" ribbon and later received it on the "combatant" ribbon. This happened sometimes if the cross was originally awarded for service in the Heimat and the recipient later went to the front. It also happened because some states changed their criteria, and awarded the "combatant" ribbon for military service in the Etappe or Heimat, in which case the recipient simply applied for a new ribbon and award document. That's one reason why I don't generally use the terms "combatant" and "non-combatant" for these awards.

 

The Iron Cross 2nd Class was one of those awards which could be given on the black-white for merit in the Heimat. Military personnel assigned to the War Ministry and to Bezirkskommandos and stellv. Generalkommandos, for example, received the black-white ribbon. Thus, for example, a X. Korps Bezirksfeldwebel might have a "combatant" Iron Cross and a Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz on the yellow-blue ribbon, until Braunschweig changed the criteria and allowed him to wear it on the blue-yellow ribbon.

 

I don't know of any award criteria which allowed one to keep wearing both crosses on the different ribbons. Of course, we have seen plenty of period errors in wear, and after 1918 there weren't any Imperial authorities to tell you not to wear whatever gong you thought you'd earned.

 

 

[Mike Huxley]

Well whoever paid $597 plus shipping for what is basically 2 EK2s and a FAM in silver in mho needs their head testing.

 

I hope it wasn't anybody from the forum.🥺

Edited October 2, 2023 by Mike Huxley

[VtwinVince]

Too rich for my blood, but I think the construction was genuine.

[Deutschritter]

On 28/09/2023 at 19:09, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

Admiralstabsintendant Fritz Burmeister was awarded both versions of the EK2 and also the EK1. He can be seen wearing the ribbons of both EK2's in this photo.

 

What a great picture! Can you report anything on his life? Did he study law? And where? When did he join the navy? Thank you!!!

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

1 hour ago, Deutschritter said:

 

What a great picture! Can you report anything on his life? Did he study law? And where? When did he join the navy? Thank you!!!

See here: https://web.archive.org/web/20091027104257/http://geocities.com/~orion47/WEHRMACHT/KRIEGSMARINE/Vizeadmirals/BURMEISTER_FRITZ.html

[Deutschritter]

2 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

See here: https://web.archive.org/web/20091027104257/http://geocities.com/~orion47/WEHRMACHT/KRIEGSMARINE/Vizeadmirals/BURMEISTER_FRITZ.html

 

Yes, thank you, but nothing about before his naval service. Do you happen to have this whole page? If yes, could you publish it? Thanks! 

[Deutschritter]

On 02/10/2023 at 13:42, Dave Danner said:

Thus, for example, a X. Korps Bezirksfeldwebel might have a "combatant" Iron Cross and a Braunschweig Kriegsverdienstkreuz on the yellow-blue ribbon, until Braunschweig changed the criteria and allowed him to wear it on the blue-yellow ribbon.

 

 

 

Dave, I have a short question. I read, the Braunschweigisches Kriegsverdienstkreuz was only awarded to citizens of Braunschweig, but I have seen many Prussians and so on receive it. Was there ever such a regulation, and if yes, when was it revised? Thank you! 

[Dave Danner]

I know of no award off the top of my head which was restricted to only citizens of a certain state. Generally, the main criteria were citizenship of the state, service in that state's military units, or service in a unit otherwise connected to the state (such as where the state's ruler was Chef or Inhaber). As the war went on, actual practice was also relaxed - someone who might have been rejected in 1915 might have been approved in 1918.

 

For Braunschweig in particular, non-citizens of all ranks in IR 92, HR 17 and 2./FAR 46 would routinely be considered for awards, since those were Braunschweig formations. Officer and selected other ranks in HR 3 and the Bavarian 1. Schweres Reiter-Regiment, the regiments to which Ernst August was à la suite, would also be routinely considered. Command and staff officers of units and commands to which a sufficient number of Braunschweigers were attached would also be considered.

 

On the flip side, it should be noted that citizenship in a state was often necessary, but not always sufficient. If you were a citizen of a state, but had spent most of your adult/working life outside the state, it was common for an award recommendation to be rejected. If your reasons for living elsewhere were outside your control, such as for professional soldiers and civil servants, that was not held against you, though.