Who was with the Kaiser in Jerusalem in 1898?

[Komtur]

The first one I found fitting in everything: Dr. Paul Dammann, as Marine-Oberstabsarzt 2. Klasse on SMS "Hertha" he is mentioned by Mirbach, we have a picture showing him with the cross and he is listed with it in the DOA 1908/9 :cheers:

[Bernd D]

Can someone have a look in the Geile roll of rare decorations, listed in the DOA 1908/9, if this person is one of the 5 owners of the Jerusalemkreuz mentioned there?

He is not listed in the DOA.

Back to Curt von Morgen. As we have now to pictures of him with the Jerusalemkreuz and one with this cross on the bar, the other with the cross as a single decoration, it is quite clear, that only one can be the original cross handed out by the Kaiser. The other must be a privat made item.

So not everything looking exactly like the cross here must be a fake!

As always, Godet can help you.

[Komtur]

He is not listed in the DOA.

As always, Godet can help you.

Ah, thank you!

Do you know, who made the official crosses and have you a source, showing that Godet did produce them too?

Here we have another one:

Generalarzt Ferdinand Rudolph von Leuthold, as Leibarzt of the Kaiser in Mirbachs book. Died in 1905, so he can not be in the DOA 1908/9.

[Bernd D]

Ah, thank you!

Do you know, who made the official crosses and have you a source, showing that Godet did produce them too?

Here we have another one:

Generalarzt Ferdinand Rudolph von Leuthold, as Leibarzt of the Kaiser in Mirbachs book. Died in 1905, so he can not be in the DOA 1908/9.

I do no know the official producer of the crosses. I guess nobody does by now.

I do not know whether Godet or somebody else produce them or not.

According the dress regulations of 15 May 1899 : Auch zum kleinen Dienstanzug (Waffenrock, ?berrock, Litewka) werden stets getragen: Orden pour le merit, Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse und Jerusalemkreuz.

That means you alway have to wear it and therefore you need a second piece. If you can afford it. One for the medalbar another one for the military dress. So somebody did those old wearers editions.

The pictures of Morgen and Leuthold show this regulation.

[Laurens Q]

...In a book, published short after the journey by Freiherr von Mirbach....

What's the name of this book, if I may ask? My source is "Das Deutsche Kaiserpaar im Heiligen Lande". I think that text might be very similar (I found the exact same quote as yours and also a similar image of the cross in this book). I quickly counted all the names in the appendix (persons who travelled along with the Kaiser) and an approximate total is 640.

Ps: Approximately 170 names are marked with an asterisk. The meaning is quoted as "Die mit einem * bezeichneten Teilnehmer geh?rten der offizielen Festfahrt an.". How would you translate the word "Festfahrt" in this case? I'm a bit at loss here...

[Bernd D]

Thanks, I was researching some bars with this cross.

It would be interesting to know which bars you are researching?

Edited August 17, 2008 by Bernd D

[Komtur]

What's the name of this book, if I may ask? My source is "Das Deutsche Kaiserpaar im Heiligen Lande".

Ps: Approximately 170 names are marked with an asterisk. The meaning is quoted as "Die mit einem * bezeichneten Teilnehmer geh?rten der offizielen Festfahrt an.". How would you translate the word "Festfahrt" in this case? I'm a bit at loss here...

It is exactly that book. "Festfahrt" means in that context not much more then journey.

Best regards, Komtur.

[Utgardloki]

A very interesting old thread, I just came across.

This painting is showing Philipp zu Eulenburg wearing a Jerusalem-Kreuz

 

Is it already known what the circumstances were that led to that this cross had to be worn even with the kleiner Dienstanzug? Was this Wilhelm II personal idea?

[922F]

In the mid-late 1970's, the rectory of the Church of the Redeemer in Jerusalem had a wall cabinet containing awards of former pastors and provosts in the provost's private reception room.  It contained at least one Jerusalem Cross and several Olberg Crosses.   These were not mounted in medal groups.  Recall similar cabinets in the Armenian Patriarch's private formal dining room, one of which displayed an Olberg Cross.

No idea of provenance.   Perhaps these were gifts from travelers and not awards to provosts [or the Patriarch] as they would not appear to be members of the official party.   A donation to the Augusta Victoria Hospital Foundation may explain the Olberg Crosses.

What seemed to be a put-together bar [similar to 1980's Ohio type but without the 'hook' and good ribbons] with both a Jerusalem and an Olberg Cross appeared at a Greenbelt, MD, USA show maybe in '84.   The bar included a Prussian Crown 3rd, an Ernestine knight lst, two or 3 German state civil medal, a Turkish Osmanie reduced size officer, and a Greek Redeemer.  The Jerusalem Cross was in first place & the Olberg in second, which seemed odd.   That one may still be out there.

 

[VtwinVince]

Can someone tell me if Rittmeister Georg von Boch was a recipient of the Jerusalem Kreuz? I have a medal bar from him with the Oelberg Kreuz.

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

Char. Konteradmiral Theodor Frey wearing the Jerusalem Cross just above his belt.

[03fahnen]

My little contribution:
I found this photo of Admiral Gustav Freiherr von Senden-Bibran - General-Adjutant

[Bayern]

On 17/08/2008 at 11:36, Komtur said:

In that case I?m afraid the DOA is not a great help:

 

Bernhard F?rst von B?low is on the Mirbach roll and got the cross. He is also in the DOA 1908/9, but the Jerusalemkreuz is not listed there.

 

BTW Bernd, could we see the whole person

This man is Bernhard von Bulow , who later become chancellor .he was not a regular officer but a reservist one . He voluntereed in 1870 in the Hussars Regiment No 7 ,took part in combats and raised to the rank of Lieutenant .after the war he was invited to stay in the Army but he declined . as he remained reservist he raised in rank 

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

Char. Konteradmiral Ferdinand von Grumme-Douglas with the Jerusalem Cross (4th on the medal bar).

[Utgardloki]

Nice picture, is this a british CVO around his neck?

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

8 minutes ago, Utgardloki said:

Nice picture, is this a british CVO around his neck?

Yes, he was a Commander of the British Royal Victorian Order.

[numis]

Is there any finality on how many were on the trip and how many were actually awarded the Jerusalem Cross?

Did the crews on the ships qualify or did a recipient have to journey on land to Jerusalem ?

And have to be part of a specified official retinue ?

Numis 

[Deutschritter]

On 04/12/2019 at 19:40, Utgardloki said:

A very interesting old thread, I just came across.

This painting is showing Philipp zu Eulenburg wearing a Jerusalem-Kreuz

 

Is it already known what the circumstances were that led to that this cross had to be worn even with the kleiner Dienstanzug? Was this Wilhelm II personal idea?

Was Philipp zu Eulenburg also a General der Infanterie? Or is that maybe General der Infanterie August Graf zu Eulenburg??? Thank you!

Edited February 3, 2021 by Deutschritter

[Utgardloki]

14 hours ago, Deutschritter said:

Was Philipp zu Eulenburg also a General der Infanterie? Or is that maybe General der Infanterie August Graf zu Eulenburg??? Thank you!

I took the picture from the website of the Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe Hamburg (maybe I should have named the source; they put it in public domain by the way, which is nice)

https://sammlungonline.mkg-hamburg.de/de/object/Graf-von-Eulenburg/P1976.857.952/mkg-e00136665?s=*&h=0&f[]=subjectActor%3AEulenburg und Hertefeld%2C Philipp zu

They named it to Philipp zu Eulenburg, what I took over here.

But You are right, also from looking at photographs of both I think it is clear it is in fact August zu Eulenberg.

 

[Deutschritter]

18 minutes ago, Utgardloki said:

I took the picture from the website of the Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe Hamburg (maybe I should have named the source; they put it in public domain by the way, which is nice)

https://sammlungonline.mkg-hamburg.de/de/object/Graf-von-Eulenburg/P1976.857.952/mkg-e00136665?s=*&h=0&f[]=subjectActor%3AEulenburg und Hertefeld%2C Philipp zu

They named it to Philipp zu Eulenburg, what I took over here.

But You are right, also from looking at photographs of both I think it is clear it is in fact August zu Eulenberg.

 

Here are the decorations for Philipp Fürst zu Eulenburg (according to Deutscher Ordens-Almanach; Handbuch d. Ordensritter u. Ordensdamen deutscher Staatsangehörigkeit. 3.1908/09), I hope, I am not missing to many. Does someone have the Date for the Schwarzer Adlerorden? Thanks!

Eisernes Kreuz (1870), II. Klasse

Kriegsdenkmünze für die Feldzüge 1870–71 (Deutsches Reich)

Roter Adlerorden, II. Klasse mit Eichenlaub und der Krone

Jubiläums-Eichenlaub „25“ 1870/1895

Zentenarmedaille, 1897

Verdienstorden der Bayerischen Krone, Großkreuz

Verdienstorden vom Heiligen Michael, Großkreuz

Hausorden Heinrichs des Löwen, Großkreuz

Lippischer Hausorden, Ehrenkreuz I. Klasse

Hausorden der Wendischen Krone, Großkreuz

Oldenburgischer Haus- und Verdienstorden des Herzogs Peter Friedrich Ludwig, Großkreuz

Königlicher Hausorden von Hohenzollern, Stern der Komture

Friedrichs-Orden, Großkreuz

Ritterorden der hl. Mauritius und Lazarus, Großkreuz

Österreichisch-kaiserlicher Leopold-Orden, Großkreuz

Wasa-Orden, Großkreuz

Nordstern-Orden, Großkreuz

Schwarzer Adlerorden

Preußischer Kronenorden, I. Klasse

Roter Adlerorden, Großkreuz mit Eichenlaub

Edited February 3, 2021 by Deutschritter

[Deutschritter]

On 17/08/2008 at 16:57, Bernd D said:

It is Kurt von Morgen.

 

Bernd, are you sure that is Curt von Morgen? I'm an amateur, but this uniform does not look German?!?

[laurentius]

5 hours ago, Deutschritter said:

I'm an amateur, but this uniform does not look German?!?

It's a Garde uniform, they had six different collar tabs based on your regiment if I'm not mistaken

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Utgardloki]

12 hours ago, Deutschritter said:

Bernd, are you sure that is Curt von Morgen? I'm an amateur, but this uniform does not look German?!?

He's wearing the uniform of the Leib-Grenadier-Regiment „König Friedrich Wilhelm III.“ (1. Brandenburgisches) Nr. 8. Over some time Kaiser Wilhelm II reissued lots of the old Frederician embroideries, that were put around buttons, for the collars of different uniforms 

Things like these from the old coats

The most well known is of course the one that was granted the generals uniform:

 

The variety of German imperial uniforms (the whole variety of German militaria) is just enormous, which makes collecting and researching so much fun.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Utgardloki

[Deutschritter]

Thank you very much, Gentlemen! But I do have one follow up question: What ties did he have to the Leib-Grenadier-Regiment „König Friedrich Wilhelm III.“ (1. Brandenburgisches) Nr. 8? I looked at his "Werdegang" and could not find one. Maybe because he was Flügeladjutant? What also put me off are the many foreign decorations, even the neck order. I somehow thought I didn't even see one German decoration. Thanks again!

Edited February 4, 2021 by Deutschritter

[laurentius]

1 hour ago, Deutschritter said:

What also put me off are the many foreign decorations, even the neck order. I somehow thought I didn't even see one German decoration. Thanks again!

When you look at his medalbar you'll see plenty of German decorations, you are right though, since all other decorations seem to be foreign (with exception of some of the breaststars).

Before 1914 there was almost an 'economy' of orders where each country had a number of jewellers who made decorations for their country. There are plenty of examples of officers (and sometimes soldiers and non-commissioned officers) who had more foreign than German awards. This tradition was aggravated by monarchs who themselves also had a nick for shiny orders and uniforms (just look at Wilhelm II or Czar Ferdinand of Bulgaria). This custom of cross-country decorating (which somewhat continues to this day) is one of the reasons I believe collectors should have a general knowledge of orders and decorations, apart from their own specialized niche.

Kind regards, Laurentius