Claudius Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 wow! Those are three outstanding Braunschweigs. That Star is a real prize, but I would also like to see that whole bar with the 2nd Klass w/S.
Wild Card Posted November 22, 2011 Posted November 22, 2011 Thank you Claudius. Here is the whole bar. :cheers:
Claudius Posted November 22, 2011 Posted November 22, 2011 Thank you Claudius. Here is the whole bar. Ahhh....I guessed right....it is an outstanding bar! This one has a real flavor to it. In in 1897, old type long service, MEZ and Afrika service with two battle spange and lastly, the Braunschweig Cross w/swords. And I do mean lastly. What is doing there on the end? Must have been a proud Prussian/Empire man. I wish RR was online. I think he would have loved to see this one. Anything of interest on the back?
Wild Card Posted November 23, 2011 Posted November 23, 2011 ...and a close up of the label. Incidentally, following up on your suggestion, I contacted RR and he agreed that this arrangement, though not completely consistent with regulations, would not be improper (pardon the double negative) for one of the several 1909 merit cross awards with swords made to the Schutztruppen who served in Africa.
Claudius Posted November 23, 2011 Posted November 23, 2011 Hi Claudius, Here is the reverse... Schön.
graham Posted October 3, 2019 Posted October 3, 2019 Too good a thread to let languish in the archives. One from me, a BrK2:
Solomon Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 Here is a medalbar from Lippe-Detmold, showing the silver merit-cross Brunswig at its end. The 2nd place is empty (ribbon of the military merit medal Lippe-Detmold), as it had been returned after receiving the war merit cross Lippe-Detmold. Regards Roman
laurentius Posted October 16, 2019 Posted October 16, 2019 Dear Solomon, lovely bar, as always. I do have one question, did the Military Merit Medal always have to be returned after receiving the war merit cross? Only yesterday I saw a lovely medalbar with both. Kind regards, Laurentius
Solomon Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 18 hours ago, laurentius said: Dear Solomon, lovely bar, as always. I do have one question, did the Military Merit Medal always have to be returned after receiving the war merit cross? Only yesterday I saw a lovely medalbar with both. Kind regards, Laurentius Hello Laurentius, thank you ? I asked a very good question, which already caused 100 years ago a quite significant confusion. In fact, following the statutes, the military merit medal was awarded, when the deeds of the soldier were not sufficent enough to receive the war merit cross (and / or the Prussian Iron Cross). But especially at the beginning of the war (1914-1916) almost nobody returned his military merit medal after receiving the cross and even the "Staatsministerium" was unsure about the returning procedure. So the Prince was officially asked about it and in 1917 the "Militärkabinett" sent an official letter to the Staatsministerium in order to clearify that the medal had to be returned after receiving the cross (I have a copy of this letter in my files). If you go through the receipts of the military merit medal you will find various stamped receipts, stating that the medal was returned after awarding the cross. To summarize...some did it and some not. That´s why you find medalbars with both awards as well. There was only one exception: In 1915 the Prince ordered to award 55 wounded soldiers of the IR 55 with the military merit medal (without swords!), used more like a wound badge...these 55 medals had not to be returned!. Below you will find an example of such a stamped receipt of the war merit cross. I hope, I explained it in an understandable way...quite complicate topic. Regards Roman
laurentius Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 Dear Roman, very interesting, and thank you for your excellent explanation. I do have one question, these men of IR 55, where they all wounded in the same battle or on the same day, or was this a retrospective ceremony for those who had been wounded since the beginning of the war? I do hope the loves of Braunschweig won't mind my questions Kind regards, and thanks in advance, Laurentius
Solomon Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 To be honest I don´t know exactly. I think I was reading somewhere, that these medals were given during a visit of the Prince to "his" soldiers, as the IR 55 was always considered as the Lippe-Regiment. My guess would be a retrospective ceremony.
Dave Danner Posted October 17, 2019 Posted October 17, 2019 Some additional details to what Roman stated: The Kriegsverdienstkreuz (LK) was created on 8 December 1914, and the first awards were made a few days later. Before then, the Ehrenkreuz was the main award to officers and the Militärverdienstmedaille (LMVM) to NCOs and enlisted men. So for several months, the Ehrenkreuz/LMVM were the Iron Cross "equivalent" for Lippe-Detmold. As Roman notes, with exceptions, if an LMVM recipient later received the LK, he was supposed to return the LMVM, but this often did not happen. As for officers, it does not appear that those 1914 recipients of the Ehrenkreuz mit Schwertern were required to return their order when they received the LK. Also, further awards of the Ehrenkreuz mit Schwertern were made throughout the war (and retroactively after the war) as a higher award, separate from the Kriegsehrenkreuz für heldenmütige Tat, which had its own award criteria. As noted above, the LK was first awarded in December 1914, and the first awards of the LK to officers in IR 55 were on 13 December 1914. But the first awards to NCOs and men of IR 55 did not happen until May 1915. At this time, just over 800 LK awards had been made, including over 500 to NCOs and enlisted men in other regiments. Roman, do you know if they simply continued to award the LMVM to IR 55 NCOs and enlisted men between December 1914 and May 1915, even while awarding the LK to NCOs and enlisted men in other units? And from 1915 on, do we know for certain if the LMVM was awarded only to those rendered dienstuntauglich and without the EK (based on the 1917 letter from the Mil.Kabinett to Natzmer) or was it also awarded like the Ehrenkreuz as a higher award to those already in possession of the LK? Regarding the awards to wounded men, I do not know what the practice was in Lippe-Detmold, but I do know from my review of award recommendations in the archives in Dessau that early in the war, Anhalt mainly awarded the Friedrichkreuz to soldiers who had received the Iron Cross or who had been wounded in action (especially if the wound was serious enough to invalid them out of the army). Otherwise, if they did not have the Iron Cross, the award recommendation had to list a reason for the award (including whether he had been nominated for the Iron Cross). As the war went on, being wounded by itself was not sufficient grounds for an award, but it was a factor.
Solomon Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 Hi Dave, difficult question, which only can be answered with the help of the award receipts (stored in the archive). In general since 1915 the LMVM was lower ranked than the LK, which was usually awarded together with the IC2. But even here exceptions exist, as I have documents in my collection stating the LMVM award and later the award of the IC2, without having the LK. By the way, formely the LMVM without swords on the medal was only awarded y high ranked officers and was turned in 1915 into a medal for the troops. Officers got during the WW1 at least the LK and / or the house-order. Regards Roman
ixhs Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) Brunswick? What the hell is Brunswick ? Here one of mines. Unfortunately, i am still looking for a name. Any thoughts to ID this flagship? I have the names of the 1910 medals. But too many possible guys... Definitely a bavarian - may be a Landrat, Bürgermeister, or official - or some kind of civilian (Kommerzienrat, Fabrikdirektor... ) Edited October 23, 2019 by ixhs
BlackcowboyBS Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) On 09/12/2007 at 00:04, Komtur said: Max Gutkind, Kommerzienrat, Major der Landwehr wow, even if the original post is 13 years old, I would like to say something about this medal bar and the photo! It is showing Max Gutkind, as stated above. Max Gutkind was born 1847 in Seesen, he was born jewish and converted to christianity later. He fought in the war 1870 / 71 and earned the iron cross 2nd class, he wasn't member of the contigent from brunswick, as didn't got any decorations from Brunswick at this time. He moved to Brunswick later. He was cofounder and the first president of the Braunschweiger Landwehr Verband and founded his own bank in 1879. He recieved the knights cross 2nd class of the order of Henry the Lion in 1890. Five years later he got the swords to it. This was pretty common in 1895. People who have fought in the war of 1870 / 71 and got decorated for bravery, did get a knighscross with swords for the 25 years jubilee, if they were awared wit a decoration from Brunswick. So Max Gutkind delivered his old knighcross 2nd class without swords back. In 1909 he was awarded the knights cross 1st class of the order of Henry the Lion. Due to the swords of his older 2nd class he got the new founded swords on the ring to it. He was the second guy who got this decoration, only one Freiherr von Mackensen got one earlier in 1908. Due to a article in the statutes of that order, he was allowed to keep his 2.nd class with swords! That is the reason while you can see both classes together on his bar! Extremly rare combination. The fourth cross on his bar is unbelievable!! As he wasn't an active soldier for 25 years in the corps of Brunswick, but was President and officer of the Landwehr this cross could be the extremely rare cross 1st class of the Landwehr. This was awarded only six times! Even if 13 pieces were produced. Strange thing is, that in the old Haus und Hof Staatshandbücher of the duchy of Brunswick until 1913 nothing of this decoration was mentioned behind the name of Max Gutkind. From 1914 on, you could read the following. They claimed, that he got the 25 years service cross for officers. That is hard to believe, but is the same in the books from 1915 and 1916. Still a mystery to be solved. The rest of his medalbar shows the Kriegsdenkmuenze with some clasps, the centenarmedal and the medal for china in steel! Max Gutkind lost his bank due to the oecnomic crash in 1929 and died 1931 in Brunswick as a honorable man. The wife of Max Gutkind earned herself the war merrit cross for woman and virgins and the red cross medal 3rd class in WW1. His son Walter Gutkind earned the iron cross 1st and 2,nd class in WW1, was tortued by the nazis and forced to emigrate to England in 1938. He died 1976 in England. Is it possible to get a digital copy of this photo in highest resolution for my archive? I would be really happy about it. I guess that this medal bar is lost due to the war or has anybody ever seen this beauty? Edited July 15, 2020 by speedytop 1
graham Posted August 5, 2020 Posted August 5, 2020 BlackcowboyBS, Congratulations a beautiful bar. The Order of Henry the Lion Knight's Cross is spectacular.
Deruelle Posted August 5, 2020 Posted August 5, 2020 Hello What a lovely bar. The knight cross 2nd class with swords under the cross is very very rare. Do you know how many were awarded ? Congrats Christophe
BlackcowboyBS Posted August 5, 2020 Posted August 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Deruelle said: Hello What a lovely bar. The knight cross 2nd class with swords under the cross is very very rare. Do you know how many were awarded ? Congrats Christophe Hi Christophe, yes I know. The knightscross 2nd class with swords under the cross have been awarded 75 times. That's all, but the knights cross 2nd class with swords through the middle is even much more rarer, there have been just 5 awards of that one. Edited August 5, 2020 by BlackcowboyBS
graham Posted August 5, 2020 Posted August 5, 2020 Some interesting information: https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/hausorden-heinrich-des-lowen-ritterkreuz-2-klasse-mit-schwertern.html Maybe try this site as well: http://www.medalnet.net/A_rare_Brunswick_order.htm
BlackcowboyBS Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 Another medal bar with just one merit cross from Brunswick. The guy who earned all this was a Prussian. Anyone would like to find out his name, before I post it? Anyway this was his medal bar for his tailcoat. 1
VtwinVince Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 Wow, that is quite the Frackschnalle. Interesting that he got the NC EK but the KDM is for combat.
saxcob Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 Note that the EC EK is for 1914 but the KDM for 1870/71. 1
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